1959 Biscayne 348 4-Barrel
- Thread starter Alec Derrey
- Start date
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
Ken, your friend sounds like a lucky guy. I like the term "walking encyclopedia", and that's why I'm always willing to listen to wisdom from a senior car guy. Forums such as this one are a great way to take that information from a handful of lucky walking encyclopedias, and pass it on to thousands of enthusiasts! I don't want to live in a future where nobody understands how their car works, and can't even fix it themselves if they did. Sadly, that's exactly what's happening thanks to automotive engineers creating new ways to make the dealers money. Just try to change the brake pads on a new Audi and you'll know what I mean. And I can imagine how replacing that curvy, wrap-around windshield in a 57 Truck could be quite a pain! So keep the stories coming because all this knowledge is priceless! And thanks for the tip Cecil, I'll give that a try next time I see the car.
Alec, sounds like you have a fantastic find! Congrats! I'm loving this thread!
If you decide to go with an axle from a '59, I'll be replacing the Eaton rear axle in my '59 El Camino later this spring and I value the space in my garage a little more than the axle. The only thing the axle could use is a new front seal. Only downfall is I'm in Colorado.
Ragan
Ragan
I just thought of another clue to check for.
In early 59, the 305 hp used an odd cast iron intake that was made from the 3x2 intake core only had a mounting pad for an AFB instead of the 3x2 pads. It had no provision for mounting the coil so the coil on an original 305 hp would be mounted on the firewall like the 3x2 cars.
Check the firewall for coil mounting evidence.
In early 59, the 305 hp used an odd cast iron intake that was made from the 3x2 intake core only had a mounting pad for an AFB instead of the 3x2 pads. It had no provision for mounting the coil so the coil on an original 305 hp would be mounted on the firewall like the 3x2 cars.
Check the firewall for coil mounting evidence.
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
Hey Dick, thanks so much for your support! I'm really glad that you're enjoying this thread, I try to make it interesting for everyone!
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
Hey Ragan, thanks for the offer! We pulled a rearend out of a junkyard 59 a few years ago just to make the car a little easier to move, but who knows if it's any good... I'd definitely be interested in that Eaton axle, and Colorado really isn't that far away. Keep me posted man, and 59 El Camino's are the coolest!
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
I just thought of another clue to check for.
In early 59, the 305 hp used an odd cast iron intake that was made from the 3x2 intake core only had a mounting pad for an AFB instead of the 3x2 pads. It had no provision for mounting the coil so the coil on an original 305 hp would be mounted on the firewall like the 3x2 cars.
Check the firewall for coil mounting evidence.
Thanks Cecil, I'm always amazed by your extensive knowledge of these old Chevys! The numbers on my intake (3732757) indicate that it is, in fact, just a 4-barrel, 250hp intake. I don't recall seeing a provision for mounting the coil on the firewall, but I wasn't specifically looking for that either... I'll check my photos! Unfortunately the car is about two and a half hours away from where I currently live, so it's not always easy to make the time to go see it. Thanks for your tips and I'll keep hunting!
Does the car have backup lights? That's not shown as an option in the assembly manual for Bel Air or Impala's but may be for the Biscayne. In that case the 12B ACCY on the trim tag might be for the backup lights, since 12 is the electrical section of the assembly manual and B could be for Backup Lights. That would require Fisher Body to install the correct harness.
About the only other possible accessory I can think of on such a basic model that would show on the Fisher Body tag might be for the rear antenna since it requires a hole in the body, but the FOA/RPO list doesn't show anything for antennas.
I edited my list of clues to more accurately reflect the wiring differences on a 348 car.
- Hot wire from Bat term on VR to battery is 12 guage red on 348 and black on L-6 and 283.
-Starter cable is 4 guage black on 348 vs 6 guage on L-6 and 283.
-Voltage regulator is mounted with two screws on top but a rubber grommet insulator on the bottom instead of a screw as L-6 and 283.
-I thought the starter wiring harness was 2 piece with a connector in line for easy disconnect when pulling the starter, but that may be a 58 only feature. It doesn't show in the 60 assembly manual but I don't have a 59 assembly manual, so I can't say for sure.
About the only other possible accessory I can think of on such a basic model that would show on the Fisher Body tag might be for the rear antenna since it requires a hole in the body, but the FOA/RPO list doesn't show anything for antennas.
I edited my list of clues to more accurately reflect the wiring differences on a 348 car.
- Hot wire from Bat term on VR to battery is 12 guage red on 348 and black on L-6 and 283.
-Starter cable is 4 guage black on 348 vs 6 guage on L-6 and 283.
-Voltage regulator is mounted with two screws on top but a rubber grommet insulator on the bottom instead of a screw as L-6 and 283.
-I thought the starter wiring harness was 2 piece with a connector in line for easy disconnect when pulling the starter, but that may be a 58 only feature. It doesn't show in the 60 assembly manual but I don't have a 59 assembly manual, so I can't say for sure.
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
Interesting as always, Cecil. Indeed the car has backup lights, so that may be what the Accessory code refers to. I didn't take any good photos of the engine bay in its entirety so I'll have to write down your list of wiring clues and investigate once I can get to the car again! I really appreciate you digging up all this info and offering speculation about the car. This is a lot of fun for me and my family, and my buddy Mike who shares ownership of the car. When we brought it home we made the decision to split the cost of the project, and that sure makes buying parts a little easier on the wallet! He's in Portland, Oregon at a swap meet right now where he came across the whole back end of a 59 Biscayne for sale! Both quarters, trunk, roll pan and bumper, in decent shape. Price is a little steep though at $700....
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
This is the spot on the dash where the police department serial number tag would have been attached. I scoured the car looking for it, but my guess is someone removed it when they painted the dash and it was lost forever... However, you can see the original light blue color of the dashboard very clearly. Sure wish I could have found that tag...
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
Jeez I wonder what the rest of the car looked like before they chopped the back off? Hopefully someone will put it to good use!
flyboyike
Member
I've been following that car for a while, too, and the fact that it hasn't sold is making me a little suspicious, as in perhaps this is a clone or a tribute, although a very well-executed one, admittedly. Granted, $59,900 (let alone $100,000) is no chump change, but in a time when brown, vinyl-roofed 318 Challengers fetch over $70,000 at Barret-Jackson, one would think that a car this unique and unusual would have found a buyer, provided the car is, in fact, what it's claimed to be. Since I'm by no means a Chevy expert, I was hoping some of you might clear some things up.
The first thing that jumps at me are the seats. They seem way too nice for a police car, especially back then. Shouldn't they be all-vinyl? Granted, this could be an issue of an inaccurate restoration rather than an inauthentic car, but still...
Secondly, notice that both RK Motors, as well as the car's previous seller (whose ad is here: http://www.rodsandchoppers.com/gallery_sub.php?id=887&category=hotrods ) are very careful not to call it a numbers-matching car with the previous seller only calling the drivetrain "original", while RK saying that the casting numbers on the engine and the trans "go nicely" with each other. Isn't that usually the case with various "reproductions/clones"?
Thirdly, and this is pretty minor, but are the wheels not supposed to be black?
Thanks for any input.
de31168
Well Known Member
To answer your questions, if you look at the pictures in the link you posted when they show the interior, the whole front seat is shiny. It is all vinyl, just two toned.
About your wheel question, the inside of the wheel should be black, but according to the paint chart info from this site "1959-1961 - The front side of the wheels on all 59 to 61 models were painted the exterior body color. This applies to both the small and full wheel cover applications. " So that should be right.
Lastly about it being a possible clone/reproduction.. That is highly possible. Someone could have taken an old police car just like the one found in this thread and decided that'd be a great way to cash in. Restore it to showroom quality and bill it as 1 of 40 ever made. I've gotten yelled at by ebay sellers before when their ads read "348 this or 409 that" and the VIN they show is a 6 cylinder car, but the price tag is well over 40-60k and I point out it is misleading. The response is usually "I didn't say this one was all original or numbers matching, i'm not misleading anybody." But personally I feel they are misleading people because a 6 cylinder VIN with a 348-409 slapped in it is not nearly as valuable as an authentic 348-409 car and should be treated as such.
Through it all, this particular ebay car is still just a 348 Biscayne, 3 speed, not even a tri-power. I don't think it will ever bring the kind of money that someone invested in it to make it this nice.
About your wheel question, the inside of the wheel should be black, but according to the paint chart info from this site "1959-1961 - The front side of the wheels on all 59 to 61 models were painted the exterior body color. This applies to both the small and full wheel cover applications. " So that should be right.
Lastly about it being a possible clone/reproduction.. That is highly possible. Someone could have taken an old police car just like the one found in this thread and decided that'd be a great way to cash in. Restore it to showroom quality and bill it as 1 of 40 ever made. I've gotten yelled at by ebay sellers before when their ads read "348 this or 409 that" and the VIN they show is a 6 cylinder car, but the price tag is well over 40-60k and I point out it is misleading. The response is usually "I didn't say this one was all original or numbers matching, i'm not misleading anybody." But personally I feel they are misleading people because a 6 cylinder VIN with a 348-409 slapped in it is not nearly as valuable as an authentic 348-409 car and should be treated as such.
Through it all, this particular ebay car is still just a 348 Biscayne, 3 speed, not even a tri-power. I don't think it will ever bring the kind of money that someone invested in it to make it this nice.
flyboyike
Member
Isn't it interesting that neither seller has provided any VIN at all in this case?
I'm guessing that that car has no documentation other than the State Police serial number tag and who knows what they really looked like.
Also, he states that the block is an "F" suffix (250 hp). If it's really a 305 engine, wouldn't it be an FD which was the suffix for the production 305?
Why would Duntov have to modify a 250 hp engine when there was a production 305 hp already, unless this was before the 305 engine came out and this was the prototype, in which case, I think it would have an identifying stamp for engineering, maintenance and warranty purposes. I was always pretty certain that the 305 came out in lete 58 production only it was first rated at 300hp.
The engine in the pics shows a 250 hp intake with coil mounted on the intake and probably a WCFB. The 305 should have a different intake with no provision for coil mounting and an AFB.
Is that a 348 fan shroud?
Why does it have a back seat when the car was manufactured as a 3 passenger business coupe?
How do we know that the 4o cars for Oregon State Police were built in Oakland and not some other assembly plant closer to Detroit?
Obviously, there were a lot more than 40 1221 2 door business coupes built at Oakland.
Also, he states that the block is an "F" suffix (250 hp). If it's really a 305 engine, wouldn't it be an FD which was the suffix for the production 305?
Why would Duntov have to modify a 250 hp engine when there was a production 305 hp already, unless this was before the 305 engine came out and this was the prototype, in which case, I think it would have an identifying stamp for engineering, maintenance and warranty purposes. I was always pretty certain that the 305 came out in lete 58 production only it was first rated at 300hp.
The engine in the pics shows a 250 hp intake with coil mounted on the intake and probably a WCFB. The 305 should have a different intake with no provision for coil mounting and an AFB.
Is that a 348 fan shroud?
Why does it have a back seat when the car was manufactured as a 3 passenger business coupe?
How do we know that the 4o cars for Oregon State Police were built in Oakland and not some other assembly plant closer to Detroit?
Obviously, there were a lot more than 40 1221 2 door business coupes built at Oakland.
de31168
Well Known Member
I'd assume talking to a retired Oregon State Trooper who actually drove one of those things way back when would be your best source of first hand information. However even a rookie 20 year old trooper would be 74 years old by now. Getting first hand knowledge and information on these things is getting harder and harder. In another 20 years it'll all be hearsay and everyone will make up their own little legend. Documentation is key!
Alec Derrey
Well Known Member
This is why I love this forum, because you guys are talking about issues that I've been struggling with. While looking at the eBay car, I too noticed some things that seemed less than accurate. When they talked about the car, they used words like "stock-style" or "period-correct", and don't say that it's original or even what components are original. The RK Motorsports website also has photos of 'documentation', which looks to be photocopies from a reference guide that just shows casting numbers. Someone then took a highlighter and marked all the numbers that correspond with the car, or so it appears. But that's really not helpful at all, anybody can highlight numbers in a book and say, "Yep, this is what it is. That'll be $60,000 please." and some pages even have hand-written corrections. Then, they didn't even bother to provide us with photos of the casting numbers themselves... I found that information to be largely useless, and only added to the confusion.
Also, they had a brochure for a Biscayne Business Coupe that clearly shows it without a back seat. Yet the eBay car has a back seat, complete with wrinkly upholstery. When I got my 59 it still had a seat front and back, but they were foolishly sold before I knew what the car might be. When removing the back seat, I notice that it wasn't attached to the car in any way, and looked as if it was home-made. It had a wooden frame with springs strapped to it, weird straw-like stuffing, no foam, and halfway decent upholstery on top. This struck me as odd, but I let it go. Now I wonder if the car came without a back seat and someone just threw one together? Or maybe Accessory code 12B alludes to a rear seat being installed on a 1221 Business Coupe? Again, the eBay car isn't helpful in that department, and I can't get in touch with anyone from RK who will help me.
If the eBay car is just a clone, then where did they find the info to make it appear (mostly) accurate? In the case of my car, it was tipped on its side sometime in the 60's, stripped, and left to rot... Yet it has a lot of similarities with the eBay car, like the cowl tag numbers, paint color, interior layout, and other small clues, leading me to think my car must have a similar pedigree to the eBay car. This also makes me think that the eBay car is likely the real thing, albeit not as valuable as the owner had hoped. I don't have any dreams of auctioning off my 59, but I would like to know what it is because there is value in the story and history of my car, at least there is to me. Hopefully I can find that old Oregon State patrolman, or the guys from the assembly line in Oakland who built those cars, and find out the real story. But that's not going to be easy, and that's why I appreciate you guys helping me out. And just for you, de31168 and flyboyike, here's a photo of my VIN.
Also, they had a brochure for a Biscayne Business Coupe that clearly shows it without a back seat. Yet the eBay car has a back seat, complete with wrinkly upholstery. When I got my 59 it still had a seat front and back, but they were foolishly sold before I knew what the car might be. When removing the back seat, I notice that it wasn't attached to the car in any way, and looked as if it was home-made. It had a wooden frame with springs strapped to it, weird straw-like stuffing, no foam, and halfway decent upholstery on top. This struck me as odd, but I let it go. Now I wonder if the car came without a back seat and someone just threw one together? Or maybe Accessory code 12B alludes to a rear seat being installed on a 1221 Business Coupe? Again, the eBay car isn't helpful in that department, and I can't get in touch with anyone from RK who will help me.
If the eBay car is just a clone, then where did they find the info to make it appear (mostly) accurate? In the case of my car, it was tipped on its side sometime in the 60's, stripped, and left to rot... Yet it has a lot of similarities with the eBay car, like the cowl tag numbers, paint color, interior layout, and other small clues, leading me to think my car must have a similar pedigree to the eBay car. This also makes me think that the eBay car is likely the real thing, albeit not as valuable as the owner had hoped. I don't have any dreams of auctioning off my 59, but I would like to know what it is because there is value in the story and history of my car, at least there is to me. Hopefully I can find that old Oregon State patrolman, or the guys from the assembly line in Oakland who built those cars, and find out the real story. But that's not going to be easy, and that's why I appreciate you guys helping me out. And just for you, de31168 and flyboyike, here's a photo of my VIN.