Swapping in an M22 in place of a TH350

[chevymusclecars]

Bill, this was originally an automatic. For this year, that would mean a powerglide although I never saw it. When I got the car, it had the TH350. (in the trunk) lol

It's a short shaft TH350 (6 inch tailshaft)

Engine is a 1963 400hp 409.

Bob

I am going to put a 327 four speed in my 65 Chevelle which is currently an automatic. I already had a complete 327 from a 63 that I was going to use but when I started looking at everything I noticed that the ball for the cross shaft goes in a tapped hole that apparently wasn't added until 64 on the 327. The 327 has an easy solution, I simply machined a later block. I looked at the 409 engines I have and the hole doesn't exist on them either. The location of the hole you will need is about two inches forward from the back of the block just above the oil filter. I'm sure that a bracket can be fabricated but it is something you need to look at before going too far.

Hope that helps.

Bill

 

[Phil Reed]

Bill

I don't know what kind of 409 block you had but all 409 are tapped for the bellcrank stud.

 

[chevymusclecars]

Bill

I don't know what kind of 409 block you had but all 409 are tapped for the bellcrank stud.

Phil

I agree they are tapped but the threaded hole that Bob will need for a Chevelle is between the hole for the oil pressure gauge and the back of the block. No tapped hole for the ball exist in that area. If you have a Chevy by the numbers book it clearly shows where the hole should be in some of the big block pictures.

Bill

 

[bobs409]

Thank you Bill! I am going to research that today. I thought a 396 and 409 would have used the same location for the Z bar stud. :?
The clutch/brake pedals and linkage arrives today and I am planning on getting starting very soon. (within days)

Bob

Bob

I am going to put a 327 four speed in my 65 Chevelle which is currently an automatic. I already had a complete 327 from a 63 that I was going to use but when I started looking at everything I noticed that the ball for the cross shaft goes in a tapped hole that apparently wasn't added until 64 on the 327. The 327 has an easy solution, I simply machined a later block. I looked at the 409 engines I have and the hole doesn't exist on them either. The location of the hole you will need is about two inches forward from the back of the block just above the oil filter. I'm sure that a bracket can be fabricated but it is something you need to look at before going too far.

Hope that helps.

Bill

 

[bobs409]

Getting closer...

I have been busy collecting all the parts I need. Only a few more small things and of course, the transmission! Still waiting on Autogear for that.

If the rain holds off today, I might get the car on the rack and start some of the "automatic" removal process. Get to use my handy dandy transmission jack I got about 2 years ago and haven't used yet.

Photo below: (all new parts)

flywheel
bellhousing
4 speed console
clutch pedals
z bar
all pedal to clutch linkage
bell dust cover
4 speed floor hump
shifter w/chrome knob
shifter linkage and shift mechanism

Still waiting on:
pedal/brake pads
console brackets
console wiring harness's
clutch fork
shift boot & retainers
console lock
console clock
M22W 4 jammer

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Nice looking table !!! And the parts are nice too.

 

[DonSSDD]

Bracket on frame?

 

[bobs409]

Bracket on frame?

Got that covered, it's in the linkage kit. Probably the only tough thing about this swap is going to be the Z bar. As mentioned earlier, the tapped hole in the block may not be in the correct place so I'll have to make a bracket but worse is I may have to cut and refab a few header tubes in that area.

Until I get the fenderwell out, I can't even see down that far. :eek:

Weather was lousy so project starts Saturday.

 

[SSpev]

I don't know why people are worried about drive shaft. The ones I have done where drop in. powerglide (65 up), 350 TH, Muncie, saganaw, T10 are close enough to the same.

New M-22 ..... WAY COOLbangbang

 

[bobs409]

I took my last ride in my 409 automatic car today.

Tore alot of the car apart today and can tell ya it's gonna get hectic. Bill was dead on correct about the hole for the Z bar. Looks like I'll have to make a bracket. I don't think it will be very difficult to do.

Bad thing is, one of my header tubes is smack dab right in the middle of where the Z bar would sit. Looks like I have to modify at least one tube. (maybe more)

I thought I could just drop the inner fender out but that didn't happen so I had to take the fender off. And in order to do that, the hood had to come off...and I had to loosen the bumper... I could already see where this was going. : Good thing anyway, it's gonna be enough of a challenge making a new header tube without leaning over a fender too.

Taking the header out is about the same way. It's a process.

Here's some pics of where I'm at:

 

[bobs409]

So what is up with that hole change for the Z bar anyway? :?

This is the first time I've ever heard of this. I never noticed it before.

I checked my 63's 283 and it's the same as the 409. The hole is way forward. All the other engines I have has the hole to the back.

The 63's 283 and the 409 both have fine threads in the hole and the other engines have coarse thread.

What year did this change take place anyway? I'm sure there must have been thousands of guys back in the day that wanted to swap another older engine into their 4 speed Chevelle and ran into this. Did they too make a bracket?

 

[chevymusclecars]

So what is up with that hole change for the Z bar anyway? :?

This is the first time I've ever heard of this. I never noticed it before.

I checked my 63's 283 and it's the same as the 409. The hole is way forward. All the other engines I have has the hole to the back.

The 63's 283 and the 409 both have fine threads in the hole and the other engines have coarse thread.

What year did this change take place anyway? I'm sure there must have been thousands of guys back in the day that wanted to swap another older engine into their 4 speed Chevelle and ran into this. Did they too make a bracket?

Bob

The best I can figure is that it happened with the release of the 64 Chevelle. I have a 1963 327 engine that does not have the hole, fortunately I figured that out before doing the machining to use it in my 65 Chevelle, but I have seen a later 870 block that does have the hole? I doubt that the 65 409 blocks have the hole since they were intended for use in full size cars but I would like to know. I think the bracket will be fairly easy to make and would like to see pictures when you get that far.

Bill

 

[oldskydog]

Bob

The best I can figure is that it happened with the release of the 64 Chevelle. I have a 1963 327 engine that does not have the hole, fortunately I figured that out before doing the machining to use it in my 65 Chevelle, but I have seen a later 870 block that does have the hole? I doubt that the 65 409 blocks have the hole since they were intended for use in full size cars but I would like to know. I think the bracket will be fairly easy to make and would like to see pictures when you get that far.

Bill

Bob,
Bill has it right. I checked all my blocks and the earliest to have the new boss is 64.....probably due to the new Chevelle body style which was the only thing new to the lineup. In fabbing a bracket there are several ways to go, but probably no one method is any easier than just fabbing one from scratch.

The early Corvettes and 55-57 cars used a bracket assembly with ball stud (3723603)http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1955...k_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1e5953cdd3.which bolted to the 922 or 365 cast iron bellhousing. You could use one of those bellhousings and shorten the bracket to fit.

Another option is the aluminum 403 bellhousing http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chev...r_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5ad509ff06 or any of the later BBC bellhousings like the 621 or some truck types which have a stud mounting boss, but would be about 2.5 " too far aft. It only provides a single hole, so if you mounted a bracket there, you would have to anchor it somewhere forward also....not much of a solution.

On a V-8 conversion of a 62-67 Chevy II/Nova, unless you have an original Chevy II block with the recessed oil filter housing and relocated Z bar mounting boss, you need one of these.
http://www.ss396.com/mm5/merchant.m...t_Code=FCB-30&Category_Code=CLUTCHANDFLYWHEEL
I'm sure you can fab something similar to work.

I know you can do it....cuz you're the GRAND POOBAH

 

[chevymusclecars]

Cecil

Thanks for checking, that is about all I could figure made any sense. A friend of mine has a 63 Nova where we used the bracket you reference on a block that had no rear hole for the second mounting point. I went to the local metal supply and found a piece of angle iron that was wide enough to reach and bolted the two together. On the bellhousing side it was simple enough to grind the metal to match the contour around the ribs and bolt it through two bellhousing mounting bolts.

Here is a picture of where the threaded hole should be that I took from the Chevelle site.

Bill

 

[bobs409]

Maybe I should make few and start selling them?

 

[SSpev]

Keep at it Bob. You'll get it.
bang

 

[bobs409]

later BBC bellhousings like the 621 or some truck types which have a stud mounting boss, but would be about 2.5 " too far aft. It only provides a single hole, so if you mounted a bracket there, you would have to anchor it somewhere forward also....not much of a solution.

Cecil, I noticed there is a hole for the stud on the new 621 bell I bought and the new stud screws right in it. I can't use it as you mentioned about it being too far back but was wondering what it's there for? Is that specific to a certain car?

Just wondering.

 

[bobs409]

Got the tranny out today. The Harbor Freight transmission jack worked great!

Next up is to fabricate the bracket, install the pedals, garnet blast the headers and recoat with stainless steel coating. After that, clean and paint the back of the engine, floors, etc and install the flywheel, clutch and bell.

Just waitin' on the rest of the parts after that...


Here's a few pics from today:

 

[64ss409]

Your progress looks good. I bet you really appreciate that hoist right now.

 

[oldskydog]

Cecil, I noticed there is a hole for the stud on the new 621 bell I bought and the new stud screws right in it. I can't use it as you mentioned about it being too far back but was wondering what it's there for? Is that specific to a certain car?

Just wondering.

Bob,
The 65-72 full size cars used the pivot stud on the bellhousing. Not sure about trucks.