Converting a 348 into a 409

['59Imp]

Hi Jackie.
In order to make your 348 block a 409 by boring and stroking it and using a 409 crank may be impossible. The wall thickness on the cylinders will more than likely not take that much over bore.
This being the case you only other option is to stroke the engine to get as close to 409 cubes as possible. The issue is that you still have a 348 block it just happens to be larger in capacity and closer to 409 than 348.
This way may be more expensive than what others have suggested above by getting a truck 409 block. They are only advising what is a proven formula and least expensive.
The way I see it is keep 348 block and get what you can out of it by stroking but it is a 348 block (same as what I am doing. 409 crank in a 348 block =380) or go 409 engine.

With the 348 block the 409 cubes is only an arbitrary figure not an engine.

Again this is my opinion and mine only.
If you ask on here you will get the answers but they may not be what you were looking for.

Regards

Steve

Oh, I see. Thanks for pointing out this info to me Steve.
Yes, I do see the issues I would have with that much overbore boring out the 348 to 409... I completely understand...
Well, this project was going to happen a long way in the future; so I will look into it some more. I still have a lot of time to do so.

So if it does turn out to me impossible to make the 348 into a 409; the 2nd alternative of mine is to hop up the 348 as much as possible while still leaving it a 348. The 348 currently runs very well, no issues whatsoever. Just is completely stock; I would really like to give her some more horsepower.
So now I am more into looking at just leaving it a 348, after what was pointed out to me about it may be impossible to have her a 409.
What does sound more possible, and a better alternative now is to hop up the 348 as much as possible, but while still leaving her a 348.
Would this be a better alternative of what I just said above?

 

[NASTY 409]

How much are you wanting to spend on this engine upgrade? or what do you think it will cost?

 

[LMBRJQ 60]

Oh, I see. Thanks for pointing out this info to me Steve.
Yes, I do see the issues I would have with that much overbore boring out the 348 to 409... I completely understand...
Well, this project was going to happen a long way in the future; so I will look into it some more. I still have a lot of time to do so.

So if it does turn out to me impossible to make the 348 into a 409; the 2nd alternative of mine is to hop up the 348 as much as possible while still leaving it a 348. The 348 currently runs very well, no issues whatsoever. Just is completely stock; I would really like to give her some more horsepower.
So now I am more into looking at just leaving it a 348, after what was pointed out to me about it may be impossible to have her a 409.
What does sound more possible, and a better alternative now is to hop up the 348 as much as possible, but while still leaving her a 348.
Would this be a better alternative of what I just said above?

Hi Jackie,
The cheapest form of horse power from the 348 block is the 409 crank and get 380 ish cubes out of it depending on over bore, Don Jacks is going down this route with his and Rickys 61 (Ricky) has already don this with rear end smashing results.
This is the route i will take as a 409 crank can be had for under $150-200 in good condition.
The pistons and rods are not out of the way as far as cost (if you were going to rebuild the 348 any how)
You will see posts on here about 333 heads and getting more horse power etc as well

There are a lot of ways to get what you want and the information is all here in this fine forum you just have to nail down the route that you need to take
The reason for the route you want to go is entirely up to you but it will come down to $$$ and what you can find in the mean time

It took me a while to accept that a lot of what i read in books about building horse power from these old engines could be learned a lot easier by listening to the guys on here who do it every day

Best of luck with your 59

And one more thing..... post more pictures

Steve

 

[303Radar]

Sheet metal? What is that concerning engine parts? I know what sheet metal is; it's the stuff on the body of the car, fenders etc. But I do not know what sheet more metal is concerning engines... So do you mind clarifying that for me, please?

Yes, I do want a lot more power. So I do now plan to upgrade all of that stuff.
So what is it all; do I change out everything all except the engine block?

I don't know how much horsepower I will get; it all depends on the final result when the build is finished, and even then is just a guess with how much exact horsepower you have...

Alright the theme, that's an easier question to answer.
I want the car to be a fun cruiser car. Where I have a good amount of horsepower, but still keeping the car street legal. I don't want a dragstrip racing car either. Street cruiser, yes.
What I want is just a real fun street cruiser, with still a good amount of horsepower too. Enough horsepower where the car can give the competition a good run for their money and maybe even beat them.

So to give a better idea with what the '59 here will be horsepower wise and what cars the '59 has a chance of beating in a street car race...
So one of my own cars is going to be the competition against the '59 as well when my car and the '59 is finished with getting a 409.

So this is where the Chevy fans around here find out that I am not 100% a Chevy person...
So I am also a Mopar person too along with being a Chevy person.
Only I like the early Mopars, like the finned '50s Mopars. Yes, the cars I am talking about here is Christine-type cars. I am very much into these type of cars.
So anyhow, I will be owning a '58 Plymouth in the very near future. Yes, a Christine. My plans for the car is to give her a Mopar big block mild 440. What I mean by a mild 440 is that I won't be hopping up the 440 all that much. And no, it is definitely not the original motor in this car. '58 Plymouth engine options were either a flathead 6 cylinder or a V8 318 small block.

And my dad thinks that the '59 when she has a 409 will beat my 440. My '58 Plymouth weighs 4,000 pounds and with a mild 440 going up against the lighter weight '59 with a hopped up 409, I think it will be a very close race. So I will be racing my 440 against my dad driving the 409.

So I hope this helped with trying to describe with what I want the 409 to be. And I sure hope that I didn't anger any 100% Chevy fans around here with me saying that I am a Mopar person as well as a Chevy person.

Glad someone answered the sheet metal question. I got caught up with work.
Some things to remember about "power" and fun are (in no particular order), power to weight ratio, gearing, and traction. Bringing these together in vehicle in good ratio's is how fun is really delivered.

Having roughly ten pounds per hp is a good starting point for most fun. Traction isn't too difficult and a good range of gear ratios work here. If you were to build both cars with this power to weight, same gear ratio's (kind of hard though without using the same transmission) and similar traction, you'd have a great starting point for experiencing how one engine type builds power and how the power bands affect drivability.

For the kind of fun I think you're looking for, I wouldn't try to build either vehicles with a power to weight ratio (at peak power) stronger than 8 pounds per hp. For a 4000 pound car, this is a 500 hp engine. At this power level, components (transmissions, rear axles, engine internals, etc) are fairly cost effective while still being reliable. I think this should get you to a capable and fun vehicle. At worst, you should be able to run a low 13 second quarter, possibly a high 12.

As far as being a Mopar fan, no one's perfect and we won't judge you to harshly. Most importantly, have fun and drive them!

 

['59Imp]

Hi Jackie,
The cheapest form of horse power from the 348 block is the 409 crank and get 380 ish cubes out of it depending on over bore, Don Jacks is going down this route with his and Rickys 61 (Ricky) has already don this with rear end smashing results.
This is the route i will take as a 409 crank can be had for under $150-200 in good condition.
The pistons and rods are not out of the way as far as cost (if you were going to rebuild the 348 any how)
You will see posts on here about 333 heads and getting more horse power etc as well

There are a lot of ways to get what you want and the information is all here in this fine forum you just have to nail down the route that you need to take
The reason for the route you want to go is entirely up to you but it will come down to $$$ and what you can find in the mean time

It took me a while to accept that a lot of what i read in books about building horse power from these old engines could be learned a lot easier by listening to the guys on here who do it every day

Best of luck with your 59

And one more thing..... post more pictures

Steve

I am not really concerned about the price to make the car run better; it will all be worth it in the long run.
So a better way to describe it is I am not sure with how much I will pay/how much it will cost after the project is finished. But what I do know is I want the car to run a whole lot better with more horsepower. So what parts I can find to upgrade the horsepower, I will most likely buy those parts and put them in. While still keeping a 348.

And yes, I was most definitely planning on rebuilding the 348. This 348 has already been rebuilt from the previous owner and I was told has less than 1,000 miles on it. A very recent rebuild. And I just recently bought the car too (August 2015). So yeah, it's a very recent rebuild.
Why I want to rebuild the 348, AGAIN, is because the motor is completely 100% stock. And I like motors that are hopped up with power (non stock motors). I think that explains enough right there...
Another reason why is because I am not 100% sure on how well of a job the previous owner did rebuilding the 348. For one thing, I have a noisy lifter on the passenger side.
Another thing is because I found some obvious forgotten things:
There was no gasket seal on the transmission (why it leaked so bad).
Oil filter was a canister type, and was no O-ring seal (why that leaked so bad). I have replaced that with a new spin on type oil filter.

So I would feel a LOT better just doing a whole new rebuild again on the 348. This time a better rebuild using all performance parts, not all stock parts.

But this all will take place a ways down the road; I still need to learn a lot more about the 348's before I tear this one apart rebuilding it. Also, there is more important things on the car calling out to me "Fix me now, FIX ME NOW!" sort of thing going on. I'm sure you understand the way that goes when you have an old project car that you're working on...

And yes, I know I need to post more pictures. Just I haven't taken the photos on my camera, yet. And I can't take any photos of the car now; unless you would like to see a photo of a car under car covers. She's hibernating/sleeping right now for the Winter, she gets to see daylight again in the Spring.

 

[NASTY 409]

Sounds strange to me to tear a good running rebuilt 348 down to modify it Better to get another 348 or 409 and modify it.These engines are NOT cheap to build stock or modified'

 

['59Imp]

Glad someone answered the sheet metal question. I got caught up with work.
Some things to remember about "power" and fun are (in no particular order), power to weight ratio, gearing, and traction. Bringing these together in vehicle in good ratio's is how fun is really delivered.

Having roughly ten pounds per hp is a good starting point for most fun. Traction isn't too difficult and a good range of gear ratios work here. If you were to build both cars with this power to weight, same gear ratio's (kind of hard though without using the same transmission) and similar traction, you'd have a great starting point for experiencing how one engine type builds power and how the power bands affect drivability.

For the kind of fun I think you're looking for, I wouldn't try to build either vehicles with a power to weight ratio (at peak power) stronger than 8 pounds per hp. For a 4000 pound car, this is a 500 hp engine. At this power level, components (transmissions, rear axles, engine internals, etc) are fairly cost effective while still being reliable. I think this should get you to a capable and fun vehicle. At worst, you should be able to run a low 13 second quarter, possibly a high 12.

As far as being a Mopar fan, no one's perfect and we won't judge you to harshly. Most importantly, have fun and drive them!

Well, I have now decided to leave the 348 a 348. I threw out the idea of a 409 because of the facts pointed out being to me above about it being impossible as the 348 wouldn't accept that high of overbore trying to make her a 409...
Thanks for the info of "power" and how it is delivered...

Yep, you sure got that right; no one is perfect at all. And yes, I am a Mopar fan, and I probably am crazy for the type of Mopars I do like. Mopars I do like? Think of an evil horror movie car, a '58 Plymouth Fury; Christine (1983). Trust me, I have been called crazy before for it! So I won't hold it against you if you call me crazy as well for it; like I said, I have been called crazy before for it and I am well used to it now.

 

[LMBRJQ 60]

Your not crazy

My mother drives a 400CI 1973 Plymouth Road Runner
My Dad has a 402CI 1970 SS Camaro

Plenty of discussions in the house about the virtues of both

Brother and i are GM all the way (unless a 68-69 charger came our way that is)

The other option is to keep the recently rebuilt 348 running in the car and do the car up around the engine while collecting parts for or having built a higher horse power engine ready to drop in later

Food for thought

Steve

 

['59Imp]

Sounds strange to me to tear a good running rebuilt 348 down to modify it Better to get another 348 or 409 and modify it.These engines are NOT cheap to build stock or modified'

Yeah, it may be crazy...

But I am not exactly sure how well rebuilt it was; like said above I have a noisy lifter and a few other things bother me with what was forgotten...
Also, it is completely 100% stock too; I would really like to give it some more horsepower. After I'm finished, she will run a whole lot better too. I don't see any problem with me doing that...
I am leaving it a 348 now too; I have thrown out the idea of making it a 409 because there was a bad idea, the 348 block wouldn't accept the amount of overbore to become a 409. As it was pointed out to me.

 

['59Imp]

Your not crazy

My mother drives a 400CI 1973 Plymouth Road Runner
My Dad has a 402CI 1970 SS Camaro

Plenty of discussions in the house about the virtues of both

Brother and i are GM all the way (unless a 68-69 charger came our way that is)

The other option is to keep the recently rebuilt 348 running in the car and do the car up around the engine while collecting parts for or having built a higher horse power engine ready to drop in later

Food for thought

Steve

I guess I got a bit distracted there...
I was planning on this project of rebuilding the 348 taking place a ways down the road after I gain more knowledge of the 348's.
And I was planning on sticking with the 348 W engine. For a big reason; the W engines are the only engine that looks good in these cars, plain and simple. In my own opinion...

 

[61BUBBLE348]

Jackie, a piece of advice.

Well plan the engine rebuild, take Nasty409 idea and get another engine as a starting point and keep your existing engine in running order.

Once you are further down the track with your body work etc, a rebuilt engine to your own specifications you can easily do an engine swap, if you need to you can sell off your original engine, if you require a numbers matching scenario, bearing in mind no Vin numbers were on 59 348 pads, then keep the engine for a later rebuild.

This gives you time, and time is precious, both to build as well as squirrel funds away for that next component.

Good luck with your project

 

['59Imp]

Thanks for the piece of advice Grub.
I will think about it...

 

[boxerdog]

Jackie, I think if I were you I would try to come up with a plan that would keep the 348 looking fairly original or "period correct", except for any bolt-on stuff you might add to dress it up. But inside, toss in the crank of your choice (409, BBC, Scat) and get as many cubic inches as you think you need. Keep the pistons as light as possible and rework a set of 333's (fairly inexpensive) and maybe a tri-power or one of Tom K's vintage aluminum 348 intakes. Cam it according to your wants/needs and get going. There are several "builds" listed on this site that would be very helpful and give you even more options and some specific cam recommendations.

I have a 348 made into a 414 (or so) in my '37 Chevy project, so I have done this. Like anything, I would do it differently if I did it today, but it has reworked 348 heads and an Offy intake (2x4) on it currently, and a fairly mild hydraulic cam. It fit my budget at the time, and it looks like it will be a perfect cruiser if I would only work on the truck.

Hope this helps!

 

[Rickys61]

Thanks for the piece of advice Grub.
I will think about it...

You've really gotten some great advice here... Keep doing what your doing in asking questions.. This is hands down the best place to learn about what your trying to do... There are many threads about different combinations to add cubic inches to the 348.. I learned sooooo much when I was reaseaching how to do mine just by using the search feature here!!
Good luck and keep us posted!!
Rick

 

['59Imp]

Jackie, I think if I were you I would try to come up with a plan that would keep the 348 looking fairly original or "period correct", except for any bolt-on stuff you might add to dress it up. But inside, toss in the crank of your choice (409, BBC, Scat) and get as many cubic inches as you think you need. Keep the pistons as light as possible and rework a set of 333's (fairly inexpensive) and maybe a tri-power or one of Tom K's vintage aluminum 348 intakes. Cam it according to your wants/needs and get going. There are several "builds" listed on this site that would be very helpful and give you even more options and some specific cam recommendations.

I have a 348 made into a 414 (or so) in my '37 Chevy project, so I have done this. Like anything, I would do it differently if I did it today, but it has reworked 348 heads and an Offy intake (2x4) on it currently, and a fairly mild hydraulic cam. It fit my budget at the time, and it looks like it will be a perfect cruiser if I would only work on the truck.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the advice Dave!
And actually, that is what I do plan on doing; I have a plan that I want to keep this car looking fairly original and period correct. Like 1959 correct. It's why I want to leave the 348 W engine in there as well, and not upgrade to a different engine that is not a W. Especially since this is the original 348 motor in the car from '59.
But I am not a "purist". I like to keep cars looking original, yes, and for the motor keep that motor in the car only I want to hop it up and dress it up. Make it look spiffy, and add horsepower.
And yes, I really want to dress it up. It is painted a bomb-can bright color orange. Orange overspray in some places... I didn't do that!!! The previous owner did... My guess was to make it look all GM original...
I plan on putting a chrome air cleaner on. What's on it right now is the original style one, painted black with orange overspray, and I don't care for those types. They're a real pain to get off too, or at least this one is.
I plan on putting a different intake manifold on. Like an Edelbrock 348 single carb one. I am not sure yet if I want to go for the satin finish one or the shiny finish. What do you all think would look better? The one on there currently is the stock one, again another part painted orange.
I also plan on putting on Edelbrock 348 shiny finned valve covers. The ones on there currently is the original ones with a Chevy bowtie on the center. And you guesses it; painted orange. I plan on having them chromed in the future and putting them back on for the simple fact that they are the originals with the Chevy bowtie on them.

 

['59Imp]

You've really gotten some great advice here... Keep doing what your doing in asking questions.. This is hands down the best place to learn about what your trying to do... There are many threads about different combinations to add cubic inches to the 348.. I learned sooooo much when I was reaseaching how to do mine just by using the search feature here!!
Good luck and keep us posted!!
Rick

Yes, I have gotten some great advice here. Very useful having a car club to go to for advice, info, and help with my car. I'm glad I'm a member here!
Thanks for the good luck wishes Rick. And yes, I will keep you all posted!
I plan on getting my own camera as well so I can stop always borrowing my dad's. That way, I can also post a lot more photos too by having my own camera!

 

[tripower]

I would not chrome your original valve covers save them as they are worth more the way the are, you can buy chrome aftermarket. Here are some pics of my engine painted all orange and looks stock but it packs a big surprise...

 

['59Imp]

Oh wow Dan, your motor looks very nice! Those valve covers look identical to mine as well, only it looks like mine were bomb-canned...

I was planning on buying chrome aftermarket ones anyhow. Edelbrock 348 chrome finned valve covers.

So I won't chrome my originals then; I'll just leave them the way they are, only maybe do a better job of painting them orange. Also, that way if I decide to go for the look of original again, I can put back on the original orange valve covers.

Dan, is that an alternator or generator you have on there?
I have a generator on mine; and it needs rebuilding or getting a new one as the brushes make noise and when I rev it up, the "GEN" charging light comes on dimly on the original dash gauges. Don't know if it's a faulty gauge or not, but in this case I will believe the gauge as it says I have a charging issue and I believe it, as the generator does look old and cruddy and I do hear the brushes making noise.
Also, do you mind answering me a question? Why do I have a voltage regulator hooked up when I have a generator? I thought the voltage regulators were only for externally regulated alternators.
I have been kicking around the idea of leaving a generator system on the car or putting a alternator on. What do you think is a better idea for the 348? A generator or alternator?

 

[Rickys61]

I still run a generator... I like the "somewhat" original look...

 

[tripower]

Does you car have power steering? If so your pump is on the back of the generator. You would have to change to the later 61 up pump if you go to alternator. If you are going to upgrade to the aluminum valve covers I would go with alternator. The generators and early alternators all had voltage regulators, you can see mine in the pics. Min is a squirl cage alternator 62 amp.