Been a minute.....

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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Hello all,

I am back to tinkering on the 64, sometimes i just have to walk away..... you know, to save my sanity.

update: rewired all the primary wiring, installed high torque mini starter (header issue)
ignition is pretty darn close, new edelbrock intake (small runners) and the Holly Street Demon 670 really woke it up.
I still have some engine noise, performace is decent, I ve readjusted lifters 4 times through all of this, soon to be 5 just to be sure.

I am almost thinking, rist pin loose slightly, maybe light piston slap, im going to dig deeper on that.

maybe go from 10-30 to 20-50?
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
So.... update, I am pulling the intake and replacing the PowerSeal lifters with a Melling set Ive had for couple years NOS for my 327 motor.
Power Seals HT-817, Mellings JB-817, I know there is a lot of crap with Japan lifters, but my guess is I have trashed these lifters by misreading,
mis-judging them, then getting oil in there and having them pump up on me, Education is expensive..........or labor intensive, it really is critical to get these right IMO the first go round, and now that I know 42 things to not do, its stab number 3 lifter change.
,
The quirky thing about this is, I have ran through two oil changes of Break in oil, just changed again to Lucas 10-30 classic car oil/filter.

2 new sets of PowerSeal Lifters, and they just warranty the 3rd set now on the shelf for 327, I think this time I am going to verify the preload gets just off the seat/ clip (dry) for my preload by visually watching down the intake, other option, I thought about, is could i get to zero lash, then use my dial indicater (magnetic base) 0 it out, measure 2 thousands, past 0. ALL OF THIS AND I HAVE DRIVEN A TOTAL OF 83 MILES, if you dont like a sound, you dont like it.



Good thing is I have not hurt anything yet, except a few lifters, this was an assembly line motor, that had to keep moving down the line, its not like its a percision motor, its tolerances can be close to spec and run decent before tuning. I know I will spend a lot of time with this BEFORE the intake goes back on.............note to self, never, ever ever try to adjust valves again with the car running, I have some cleaning to do.
 
NCPOP

NCPOP

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I hesitate to say this so I hope this statement that I am about to make comes out right. I think that you are starting to overthink this deal. You can feel zero lash with your thumb and index finger by spinning the push rod with those 2 digits as you tighten the rocker. You will feel the pushrod become tight to the point that you don’t have any slop, stop at that point and you now have zero lash. Then while on the same rocker give it 1/2 to 1 full turn tighter and you will be in the ballpark. I have a tendency to get lost on sequence so I go straight down the line with my adjustment. It is more work because you are turning the crank a bunch. Pull all the plugs and turn the engine over with your whatever you are using and have your other hand on the rocker. If you think you might have missed it turn the crank back and then forward again and feel it again until you are sure that it is where you want it.
Another thing is I also have been concerned about your rocker studs. Have you verified that all are staying put.
Hey guys that’s my .02 cents, please correct anything that is not stated correctly, we need to get this 409 on the road!
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
NCPOP said:
I hesitate to say this so I hope this statement that I am about to make comes out right. I think that you are starting to overthink this deal. You can feel zero lash with your thumb and index finger by spinning the push rod with those 2 digits as you tighten the rocker. You will feel the pushrod become tight to the point that you don’t have any slop, stop at that point and you now have zero lash. Then while on the same rocker give it 1/2 to 1 full turn tighter and you will be in the ballpark.This is done of course when you have rotated the crank/ cam to the highest part of the lift for the rocker that you are adjusting. I have a tendency to get lost on sequence so I go straight down the line with my adjustment. It is more work because you are turning the crank a bunch. Pull all the plugs and turn the engine over with your whatever you are using and have your other hand on the rocker and bring it to its highest point. If you think you might have missed it turn the crank back and then forward again and feel it again until you are sure that it is where you want it.
Another thing is I also have been concerned about your rocker studs. Have you verified that all are staying put.
Hey guys that’s my .02 cents, please correct anything that is not stated correctly, we need to get this 409 on the road!
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I agree. Im going to triple check everything before it goes back on. You’re the 2nd , third person to mention studs. I mean I had all new springs and valve job on these 817 heads and machine shop said good to go? How can you check for slop etc? I’m guessing a measurement?
 
NCPOP

NCPOP

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Iowa409 said:
I agree. Im going to triple check everything before it goes back on. You’re the 2nd , third person to mention studs. I mean I had all new springs and valve job on these 817 heads and machine shop said good to go? How can you check for slop etc? I’m guessing a measurement?
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Iowa409 said:
I agree. Im going to triple check everything before it goes back on. You’re the 2nd , third person to mention studs. I mean I had all new springs and valve job on these 817 heads and machine shop said good to go? How can you check for slop etc? I’m guessing a measurement?
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The slop that I was talking about is the pushrod being loose enough between the top of the lifter and the bottom of the rocker to be able to spin it easily with your fingers. When you have the cam/lifter in the correct location ( following EOIC procedure for the cylinder that you are adjusting that’s when you tighten the rocker nut and at the same time you are feeling for resistance on the pushrod by holding it between thumb and finger. At the point where the pushrod won’t spin with finger pressure is where you have zero lash, at least for all practical purposes. Then when zero lash is achieved go ahead and turn the rocker nut 1/2 to a full turn and move on to the next one. Actually probably no more than 3/4 turn.
Check your pushrods for being straight.
Check condition of rocker at the cup where the pushrod sits and under the rocker ball.
Check the rocker ball for smooth and along with good fit to the stud.
Keep same rocker ball and rocker together.
I am not sure what has been mentioned before without going back through the different threads, so forgive me if I am repeating things already said.
I really HATE to mention this next thing but I know that you are wanting to be thorough so let’s talk about valve springs.
I think I saw somewhere that you are running a stockish cam so you wouldn’t be running very stiff springs but you should at least do a visual of every spring to check for broken and I don’t know if you can really be certain of the condition without removing them from the engine. The best thing to do would be to remove springs and check them visually and also pressures both on the seat and on the nose. If everything passes great but then you need to have the right spring height and installed height.
I will share this story about my spring problems: I let my machinist furnish my springs and I told him what the cam maker said it needed. He called me and said your heads are ready everything is put together with the spring rates needed. Actually the heads where installed on the engine by him at his shop. I brought the engine home and finished it up. I took it to the Dyno to break in and wanted to know the numbers. The engine ran good until 5000 to 5300 rpm as it began to “ break up” valve float. Long story but spring rate wasn’t even close to specs that I gave him. Changed out on the Dyno and good to go.
If you are comfortable with the springs just address the lifter/ rocker deal and see how it goes.
 
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La Hot Rods

La Hot Rods

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 16
Not sure I understand the talk of the cam in the highest lift, that is not a time to be adjusting the lifter. You want it on the heel or clearance part of the lobe if it is a solid flat tappet.
 
64ss409

64ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
I hope changing to the Melling lifters fixes your problem. I have never heard of PowerSeal. I suspect a Chinese company trying to fool us into thinking" Sealed Power" which is a company that makes quality parts. I have used Sealed Power rings for many years.
 
NCPOP

NCPOP

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
La Hot Rods said:
Not sure I understand the talk of the cam in the highest lift, that is not a time to be adjusting the lifter. You want it on the heel or clearance part of the lobe if it is a solid flat tappet.To adjust valve lash, be it with a hydraulic or mechanical cam, you need to have the lifter on the heel or base circle of the camshaft lobe. To get there, use the exhaust opening and intake closing method (EO/IC). The lifters do not need to be primed, or otherwise force fed with oil, but some engine builders will soak lifters before engine assembly. Just be sure to use plenty of cam lube on the lifters before you get started.
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Yes James, dang it I misspoke I believe Iowa has a flat tappet hyd. cam but either way the following procedure I copied and a much better explanation than mine.
Iowa 409 I hope your head isn’t spinning, just follow this procedure.

Starting with cylinder No. 1 (usually the head that is farthest forward on the block is No. 1) with the valve cover off, rotate the engine until the exhaust lifter begins to move upward. This is the point at which the exhaust valve is opening (EO), meaning the piston is through with the power stroke, and it's about to begin the exhaust stroke. At this point, the intake valve is closed and the lifter is on the base circle of the camshaft and can be adjusted. To adjust lash with hydraulic lifters, simply grab the pushrod and back off the rocker-arm adjusting nut until you feel play between the pushrod and the rocker arm. Turn the rocker arm adjusting nut while rotating the pushrod until there is no more play between the pushrod and the rocker arm, then tighten the adjusting nut one half turn. That's it, you're done. To adjust the exhaust lash, turn the engine over until the exhaust valve has completed its lift cycle and the intake valve begins to close (IC). Now, the exhaust lifter is on the base circle because the piston is finishing the intake stroke and about to begin compression. Set the lash on the exhaust valve and you're done. This needs to be done for each cylinder.
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Very good details guys, yes most of this has been covered by many members I just have to do it right, or have a quality lifter we shall see.

My adjustment procedure:(past attempts)

Exhaust valve opens and closes, intake just starts to come up then adjust BOTH intake/exhaust while in overlap.

Is that correct?


This time instead of being fast Freddy on reinstall, I’ll keep that intake off until I feel better, which in reality I won’t know until they pump up with fluid.
 
Mr. Chev

Mr. Chev

Well Known Member
I do one cyl at a time and just watch for intake to close and give another few cranks of the ratchet on crank so the piston is compressing, pretty sure when the piston is almost at tdc on firing stroke the valves have to be on the heel, I usually check after each cyl by doing it twice, takes time but I like to make sure, one noise I had and has been addressed it the rockers hitting the studs, I broke a rocker and noticed the witness mark on slot and took all off and found that all were hitting and giving me the solid lifter sound without the solid lifters, I purchased some scorpion rockers and got a nice pair of plm valve covers from a member here (thanks) once I put them on and adjusted my noises were finally gone.
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Mr. Chev said:
I do one cyl at a time and just watch for intake to close and give another few cranks of the ratchet on crank so the piston is compressing, pretty sure when the piston is almost at tdc on firing stroke the valves have to be on the heel, I usually check after each cyl by doing it twice, takes time but I like to make sure, one noise I had and has been addressed it the rockers hitting the studs, I broke a rocker and noticed the witness mark on slot and took all off and found that all were hitting and giving me the solid lifter sound without the solid lifters, I purchased some scorpion rockers and got a nice pair of plm valve covers from a member here (thanks) once I put them on and adjusted my noises were finally gone.
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That’s awesome glad you got it figured out.

Mine is a “ THING” I will eventually figure out. It would be awesome to get’er driving reliably and satisfactorily
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Ishiftem said:
Why would you adjust the intake when it's starting to open??? When the exhaust starts to open adjust the intake. Just the intake! When the intake almost closed adjust the exhaust. Just the exhaust! Its that simple.
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Well simply put…. Because I thought that was correct, when both lifters were at their equal lowest points in the engine is where I set 0 lash on that cylinder.
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Ishiftem said:
It’s too easy to be slightly off that way and not realize it.
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Yep I understand NOW I also just learned I can order some 1.75 Scorpions 1041 set

I am going to go back and re read the correct procedure to really compare to what I’m doing to really understand what I’m doing wrong. Sounds like I’m adjusting from wrong starting place.
 
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