Hello from new member and a 348 cam question

[greg 64W]

Hello all,
Finally getting around to the introduction. Name here is Greg; I have a 1964 Bel Air 4dr on its way from CA as well as a 66 Caprice Sport w/327 restored, a 69 Olds Cutlass ragtop in process and a 55 DeSoto Fireflyte nearly compete. Daily driver is a 97 Chevy Sub K1500. First car was a 54 Ford w/239 V8 when I was 16 followed a bunch of beaters over the past 35 years or so.

I have a specific question: I plan to drop a '59 348 block I recently acquired into the 64 Bel Air. Not worried about the swap; the 283 has 150k miles on it. The 348 was purchased "just rebuilt" from a reputable shop in MI; has a lot of Egge parts in it including the cam and 9.5:1 pistons .030overbore and it has the factory 59 tri-power. I do not have the specs on the Egge VMCV15 cam but figure it is a low perf, standard cam. I am looking at 4 possible cams and need advice. the engine is stock 9.5:1 and will be used with powerglide and stock rearend. I am looking for a driveable, reliable engine; nothing more. There are 4 cams I am looking at; all from Isky:
#1 adv. dur: 262/262 .050 duration: 208/208 lift: .473/.473 lobe center: 112
#2 adv. dur: 256/256 .050 duration: 202/202 lift: .482/.482 lobe center: 112
#3 adv. dur: 262/262 .050 duration: 208/208 lift: .488/.488 lobe center: 110
#4 adv. dur: 252/252 .050 duration: 208/208 lift: .458/.458 lobe center: 110

I am worried about the lift numbers; possible clashing with the pistons. #3 is supposed to be the 409/409 cam in a hydraulic form. Right now I am leaning towards #1 or #2 but would appreciate any advice especially on the 110 vs 112 degree lobe center.

Thanks!

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

None of those cams will cause a problem. Lift has very little effect on piston to valve clearance.
It's the duration @ .050" that uses up the clearance.
With those regular 9.5:1 pistons, and composition head gaskets, you're OK up to about 218-220 degrees duration @ .050", with a modern quick ramp cam profile.

 

[greg 64W]

Thanks, Aubrey! That was what I was thinking but I've read so much about not exceeding .458 lift and lift numbers close to that that I was concerned. As far as 110 degree lobe center vs. 112 degrees or anything different do you have any recommendations on that? I am tending towards the torquey results I think I will get with cam #2; especially with stock 59 heads. I'd really like it to be strong right off idle; I don't see pushing this engine past 4500 - 4800RPM at all. Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Greg, I have found that if you can keep lift around .470", and you have short duration so you're not revving it out, you can run that lift with a good set of stock 348 springs. If you're going to be changing springs anyhow, there are a little "tougher" cams available, with the same durations.
I'd recommend 206 - 212 duration @ .050", on a 110 center line. Run the cam straight up ( no advance in it ).

 

[jim_ss409]

I think you're right in the ballpark with all those cams. I also like the 110 lobe centers so I might lean toward #3. Of course you should check for coil bind. If worst comes to worst and the lift was a bit too high, you could always go to 1.7 rockers.
It's too bad you don't know about the cam it has now, it might not be all that far from what you're looking at.

 

[greg 64W]

Thanks, guys! I am looking at #3 but I am also looking / leaning towards a similar cam from Bruneau right now. Wish I had the specs on that cam that is in the engine now; the engine was rebuilt for a guy and he passed away after it was run in on the stand but never installed in the car. I bought the engine from the rebuilder trying to recoup some money. He did not have the cam specs; I could degree it out and measure it but I still don't know how well it was made or if it would last. I know it was the low perf cam form Egge, but they don't list specs on it. My guess is it is a Chevy 348 low perf clone. Regardless of cam in use, I certainly am not going to hit it hard; it won't get pushed past 5K RPM at all. I like the idea of stock springs; they were replaced when the heads were redone. New valves, etc. also done. I do have one more question that will seem stupid but I am just learning about the W motors: What rockers can I use to lower the ratio to 1.7:1 and do I need to do any other work or use different pushrods etc?

I've got the stock tri-power but I am leaning towards an Offy low profile intake 2x4 I picked up and a pair of AFB 400CFM's on it. 800cfm is still over-carbed, but a progressive linkage and stock air valves should keep it managable. I really want that "cool W motor look" under the hood - it's going into a 64 bel air 4 door that currently has a PG auto trans but will have a TH350 when I am done with it. The tri-power carbs are going on a Fenton SBC intake and on my 327 in a 66 caprice.

Again, thanks for the good advice. I know what makes a SBC or an BB Olds do what i want it to do but the W is a new one on me. I know the basics are the same but the different chamber philosophy and heavy pistons etc make me feel like I'm 15 again and building my first engine up - gotta ask a lot of quesitons from those that have done it!

- greg

 

[LMBRJQ 60]

Hi Greg,
You have two guys with a lot of experience on your case so my bit is not worth much.
That said, you have committed to installing a new camshaft so why not remove the old one earlier then you will have the numbers on it. i see it as a no lose situation, if it is not correct for your application then no loss as it was coming out any way. if it is OK for your application also no loss as you save on the purchase of a new cam JMHO.
Im in the same boat with a 61 engine and will be removing an unknown cam in about 2 weeks time for the same reason
Keep us posted on the build, and as you will have read we all like pics
Steve

 

[greg 64W]

Great suggestion! I actually just finished measuring it this evening. A bit crude method; I pulled the rocker covers, set up the dial gage and measured at the valve side of the rockers. Used an old degree wheel. Man that engine is tight! He said there was an hour of break-in stand time on it; he wasn't kidding! I got numbers very close to the low perf 348 hydraulic cam: duration at .050 lift of ~192 intake and ~204 exhaust give or take and about 0.400 lift on each (slighty less). That seems pretty close to the low perf cam specs. The next step will be to pull the cam out and see if there any markings. But, I think it will be the Egge low perf replacement cam - maybe I'll be able to tell who made it and get the actual specs from that. I will post a few pictures of the block as well as the car this weekend. I lit up the old 283 in her this afternoon - it is pretty tired so I either rebuild it or drop in the 348. I like the second choice better

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Greg, unless you're just the VERY CURIOUS sort.... spending hours scrutinizing that cam, just to confirm that it's an old stock low-perf huydraulic, is, well... quite unremarkable
Too bad about the excessively tight engine. Never a good thing
Again, when selecting a new cam, bear in mind that lift has virtually nothing to do with piston-to-valve clearance.
Watch youre durstion @ .050"... 218 on the intake would be a limit. Long, lazy old-school ramps can wreak havoc as well.

 

[Don Jacks]

Hi Greg,and welcome aboard.As to the 0950 cam,I think that would be a very good chioce,modern cam design,a little "attitude"at idle,peaks at about 5200 rpm.decent fuel economy.I've used this profile in small blocks and love it on a daily driver application.You'll like the low-mid range torque!

 

[greg 64W]

Well, I am sort of the curious type. I work by days as an engineer in a research department developing communications systems. So, I always want to know how / why things work as they do. That's the cool thing about projects like this - build, test, analyze, but drive and have fun in the process! And, again thanks for your comments, Aubrey. The engine isn't overly tight - I was turning it mainly by hand on the harmonic balancer. With the short duration, it gets pretty tight as get on the compression stroke - plugs are still in it (stupid me - should of pulled then out but was too lazy. At least the holes are filled for storage...). I ended up using a short bar / socket to finish the job. I'm just comparing it to worn out engines like the current 283.

I think I am going to go with the 206/212 duration option and use 1.7 rockers. I'm going to check it tonight - pull out a plug and see if the replacement pistons have any relief cuts in the piston top wedge. I am going to pull the PG trans and go with a TH350. The PG has 154K on it just like the 283. It still pulls good but that's getting pretty long in the tooth. I've been working on my 66 Caprice and thought that thing had room under the hood even with the AC, power steering / brakes, etc. The 64 has manual brakes and steering - that compartment is so empty! I think I could put another SBC in front of the current one and it would fit! Pulling the radiator would just about allow me to change the cam if need be in the car without too much trouble at all.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help. I will post some pictures this weekend.

 

[greg 64W]

View attachment 19716View attachment 19714View attachment 19715View attachment 19716View attachment 19717 Hello, I decided to go with the Show Cars (New Ulm, MN) 911 grind for the 348. It is an Isky cam with .458 lift, 110 lobes center, and mild duration. The 283 in the 64 is tired and is coming out this weekend. When the 348 goes in, a TH350 with a 2000 stall converter will be behind it. The stock 3.31 rear axle will remain.

I have started looking for a 409 block or, preferrably, short block with crank. I'd like to rebuild one, usng Bruneau's forged pistons, etc., and drop on a pair of complete Edlebrock heads I have already acquired that a friend bought for a project but never used and sold the car / engine. I'll use his cam recommendation in that build up when it happens. Any leads...I know..laughter...let me know. I know I'll eventually find a rebuildable block.

I promised a few images of the cars. I am uploading shots of the 64 Bel Air 4dr (this project car) and my 66 Caprice 2dr. More images - especially of the swap - to come. The first three are of the 64 with "seat covers" and hood ornaments" (lol) and the other 2 are of the 66. And, yes, those hideous 20 inch wheels are gone - original 14 inch rims and tires with the factory wheel covers back on her.

regards,

greg