brisbane47
Well Known Member
Here are two photographs of the Aluminum Trans Am Pontiac engine that "never was". The first photograph shows the castings with a clean up cut done. Anyone want to guess what the two cylinder heads are from? TS
Aluminum Pontiac project
- Thread starter brisbane47
- Start date
Heads
Well, their Hemi!
:
Well, their Hemi!
:brisbane47
Well Known Member
Now there is a really clever deduction Fatride!!! See if you can narrow it down a little more!! The second photograph is giving me some trouble posting, will work on it tomorrow! TS
Hemi heads.
Are those the M/T pontiac heads??????
:
Are those the M/T pontiac heads??????
:bubbletop61
Well Known Member
Are they Cosworth Heads or from some sort of Tempest or a VEGA??? OHC was pretty rare in high V8's in that era. I believe Pontiac did and OHC 326 in the lates 60's.
BBTP61
BBTP61
Fran Preve
Banned
Well the blocks are thru what we would call "op 20" ("op 30" cut the rough bores. The block has holes for the cam in the block. I'd have to go back and look but the valve angles look more OHV that OHC. Heads are Mickeys?, I seem to remember an article in Hot Rod about experimental Pontiac engines. I lean towards a hemi head rather than cammer, but for Trans Am you may want the revability. I only wonder if it's a cammer how do they drive the cams?. I'll go back and look and ponder.
Cosworths had 4 valves, the OHC six was a wedge. But then the OHC Pontiac 6 was basically a bolt on part so the cam drive may not have been a big problem. Anyway.
Cosworths had 4 valves, the OHC six was a wedge. But then the OHC Pontiac 6 was basically a bolt on part so the cam drive may not have been a big problem. Anyway.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
Fatride has redeemed himself with the correct answer. The heads came from M/T. They were not supposed to have been sold, but came to me by way of one of the blocks owners from Canada. They are almost a clone of the 392 Chrysler Hemi heads with some changes in the valve angle and of course the bolt holes ect. The valve gear was all hand made here from 7075 aluminum and some hemi parts. Fran, on a four block run there is no operation sequence to go by, these blocks had the OAL + .010 dimension done and the pan rail surface cut to qualify the CtoC dimension for the cam bearing bores. I will post all the pictures in the gallery when I get them scanned and reduced. 1911, one went to Canada, one to Nevada, one to Jim Luikens in Grand Rapids, MI and one to South Africa. See Ya, TS
Steve Barcak
New Member
Hello, I'm new to this board. Someone informed me that there was talk and pics on the M/T Pontiac Hemi so I had a look. I have one complete blown injected M/T Pontiac HEMI as well as 5 other HEMI Pontiac castings and I am building customs parts for the others. The heads shown are M/T Hemi Pontiac. If I may respectfully add/correct some postings- The Hemi heads had nothing to do with Trans Am racing. Some Pontiac engineers were doing some out the back door Trans Am racing in the late 60's and early 79's. These HEMI heads were built and desgined by M/T primarily for drag racing in the very early sixties, many years before Trans Am racing existed. Jack Chrisman drove the Hemi Pontiac top dragster for Mickey Thompson and they won the US Nationals, beating none other than Don Garlits in the final in '62 right after they were released. These heads were for sale and available to the public as listed in several of his catalogs. Prices were $1000 for the pair. Intakes were available too. The comment about the "never was" is false. If anyone has access to the Dec '62 Hot Rod, there is a feature on the car and its engine (although it is not comepletely accurate).
Another comment about them being a clone to the 392 is also completely false. The casting and porting is very advanced and different from the 392. Many 392 guys are impressed at just how different they are when I show them to compare. The only thing that interchanges with the 392 are the valve covers and the intake rockers and valves. Otherwise, it is it's own animal.
I can't ID the blocks well enough with the one pic provided. Please post some more. I have a similair (or identical) alum Pontiac block too. These are very rare and never released to the public, maybe the blocks are what you were refferring to as to "never was"?
Again, I don't mean to step on anyones toes, just to inform the facts. Much more info on the Pontiac HEMI can be found on my website- www.pontiacheaven.org thanks, Steve Barcak
Another comment about them being a clone to the 392 is also completely false. The casting and porting is very advanced and different from the 392. Many 392 guys are impressed at just how different they are when I show them to compare. The only thing that interchanges with the 392 are the valve covers and the intake rockers and valves. Otherwise, it is it's own animal.
I can't ID the blocks well enough with the one pic provided. Please post some more. I have a similair (or identical) alum Pontiac block too. These are very rare and never released to the public, maybe the blocks are what you were refferring to as to "never was"?
Again, I don't mean to step on anyones toes, just to inform the facts. Much more info on the Pontiac HEMI can be found on my website- www.pontiacheaven.org thanks, Steve Barcak
Fran Preve
Banned
Bris: I only meant that from what the pictures showed the would have been thru our Op 20. Of course you can't machine an aluminum case with iron machinery, aluminum is either dry or with an "watery" coolant. At Tonawanda the aluminum head job STUNK! what with all the vapors in the air.
The aluminum ZL-1 cases were machined, basically from what you showed, on a CNC machine that did EVERYTHING!. It was right on the machine floor by the assembly line (ZL-1's were hand assembled in a different place, a "clean room". Anyway, the rough casting was clamped down, the machine started, and buzz-click it rotated drills came in, went out, etc. Quite an operation. Because it was CNC if something putxed up you have to start all over.
Steve: thanks for your input, it added to the post.
The aluminum ZL-1 cases were machined, basically from what you showed, on a CNC machine that did EVERYTHING!. It was right on the machine floor by the assembly line (ZL-1's were hand assembled in a different place, a "clean room". Anyway, the rough casting was clamped down, the machine started, and buzz-click it rotated drills came in, went out, etc. Quite an operation. Because it was CNC if something putxed up you have to start all over.
Steve: thanks for your input, it added to the post.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
Steve Barcak, you do step on toes if you can't read. The question was: "can anyone identify these heads?" It did not pretain to the blocks in the picture at all. As far as the blocks go, they were machined directly from the scroll prints from Pontiac engineering with some sleeve modification. Like I stated, they were intended for the trans am program that never got put in place. They were never intended to have "hemi" heads. As far as the heads being that much superior to the chrysler design, I think that is up to the flow bench and engine builder. I am glad that you know all about the "hemi" Pontiac, but that is not the intended use of these blocks, they were not for drag racing. It would be helpful to seperate your "facts" from reality. TS
Fran Preve
Banned
Bris: Lighten up, I misread your post too, no big deal, honest mistake. Sheeesh................That said........
Steve: people sometimes get a little harsh, especially when it's late and their tired.............like me, right now, G'night.
Steve: people sometimes get a little harsh, especially when it's late and their tired.............like me, right now, G'night.
blah blah blah
As Fran said, take it easy! Lets not forget the theme here. The m/t peices are interesting. But other than that who wants to argue about pontiacs involvment with trans am? Unless its a canandian pontiac or perhaps a super duty racing a 409 I dont care to see it here. jmo Eric
As Fran said, take it easy! Lets not forget the theme here. The m/t peices are interesting. But other than that who wants to argue about pontiacs involvment with trans am? Unless its a canandian pontiac or perhaps a super duty racing a 409 I dont care to see it here. jmo Eric
CDNpontiac409guy
Banned
63z11 wrote:
"As Fran said, take it easy! Lets not forget the theme here. The m/t peices are interesting. But other than that who wants to argue about pontiacs involvment with trans am? Unless its a canandian pontiac or perhaps a super duty racing a 409 I dont care to see it here. jmo Eric"
OOOOH MAN, Eric.... It's not just YOUR opinion
"As Fran said, take it easy! Lets not forget the theme here. The m/t peices are interesting. But other than that who wants to argue about pontiacs involvment with trans am? Unless its a canandian pontiac or perhaps a super duty racing a 409 I dont care to see it here. jmo Eric"
OOOOH MAN, Eric.... It's not just YOUR opinion
T.S., Steve, I confess to be the guilty party. You see if I possessed a part so rare as the one Steve has, then I would be driven to learn all the history behind it, but thats me. The car that awoke my interest in Hi Po was the 69 GTO judge and having seen the aluminum blocks first hand from rough castings to finished products has since had me dreaming of possessing one of those blocks, installed in my own 69 GTO. After waiting many years I purchased that same GTO [which redirected my youth, life], 7 years ago, which is also how long I've been searching for any mention of these blocks. Happening upon Steve's website just days ago, I felt I had struck gold and thought if the two of you were to talk, then I would get the answers to my 30+ year old questions. Where did they go? How many are left? Whats the history of the block in Steve's possession? etc... With all due respect Steve, I too felt your dissertation on the M/T heads was unnecessary as cyl. heads designed to fit a Pontiac, it's ports and manifolds, cyl. C to c etc... for max performance would have to differ noticably from its Chrysler cousin. I hope that the history and origins of Steve's block prove to be what I've been searching for, and if Steve's needs to know are like mine than a conversation with T.S. would be the jackpot as HE was THERE so His facts come as first hand knowledge.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
I just looked at the heading, "general car talk, off topic," It seems to me if it were not of interest, I would not look at the post. If you all feel the same as Eric, let me know so I don't spend any more time scanning photographs. TS
CDNpontiac409guy
Banned
Fair enough, TS... you ARE in the right topic.
It's just me. I happen to have a distaste for the Pontiac engine that if one didn't know better, may appear to emminate from a source that perhaps is not of this universe:eek:
Only my OPINION
I'm sure there are many here would find the photos very interesting and informative.
I'll shut up now
It's just me. I happen to have a distaste for the Pontiac engine that if one didn't know better, may appear to emminate from a source that perhaps is not of this universe:eek:
Only my OPINION
I'm sure there are many here would find the photos very interesting and informative.
I'll shut up now
Geeezzzzz guys,,,, did i miss something here?
I like to see, hear and learn about any cool stuff that GM cooked up during the FUN days !! This included !!!
We shouldn`t get in another crash bash mud slinging as this is an election year and we can leave that to the pros (politicians) !! heeee heee
I would like to hear both side of this topic and see more pictures !!
Anything GM did to beat the competition on ANY track should be FUN to hear about !!!,,,,dq
BTW,,, I like your website Steve
I like to see, hear and learn about any cool stuff that GM cooked up during the FUN days !! This included !!!
We shouldn`t get in another crash bash mud slinging as this is an election year and we can leave that to the pros (politicians) !! heeee heee
I would like to hear both side of this topic and see more pictures !!
Anything GM did to beat the competition on ANY track should be FUN to hear about !!!,,,,dq
BTW,,, I like your website Steve
Hey Steve, go for it man, this is the "General Car Talk " forum and I love to hear about all of the Special Op's project engines of all the manufactures, even the the 427 Cammer of the other guys. So guys lets not start another pissin contest, if ya don't like the title of a thread, don't read it...09