Truck Engine Rebuilds

[jim_ss409]

Thanks to a lot of help and suggestions from forum members I've finally got the truck engine rebuilds pretty much put together. Here's a link to the original post, it has lots of extra information... http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12281 But what I mainly wanted to do with this post is just copy the main parts so that anybody can comment on them. I think we're in the ball park on the parts needed to make the various horsepower levels but I'd appreciate any suggestions. It's easy for me to go back and edit these posts.
I'd like to thank all the members that contributed answers to the many questions that came up along the way.

I'll post the 300, 350, 400 and 450hp build suggestions here.

 

[jim_ss409]

300 HORSEPOWER

300hp might seem like a low target but it may be perfect for someone that wants an inexpensive, reliable, smooth running 409 that can run on 89 octane gas. At this horsepower level cast pistons would be acceptable. The notch in the block along with the combustion chamber in the heads will drop the compression about one point so in order to get 9 to 1 compression you need to order 10 to 1 pistons.
For a basic 300hp buildup the standard engine kit from Show Cars looks like a good way to go. I copied this from their on line catalog...
http://www.dr409.com/

409 Cast Complete Master Re-build kit

4996 Cast Pistons... Set $259.00
3340A Cast Rings... Set $64.95
5343TR True Roller timing... Set $48.00
1085 cam bearings... Set $29.50
6733 Main bearings... Set $129.00
3342A Rod bearings... Set $26.50
0901 Hydraulic cam... Ea. $89.95
3327 Hydraulic lifters... Set $43.95
3345A Standard Oil Pump... Ea. $22.25
3211 Oil Pump Shaft... Ea. $9.95
3345C Oil pump pick up tube... Ea. $19.95
4033A Freeze plugs... Set $11.50
5657 Gasket set... Set $80.00
5930 Engine Re-build pack... Free
TOTAL... $834.50

Here's the specs. for the cam that comes with this kit...
0901
Hydraulic
0.403 intake lift
0.415 ext. lift
248deg. advertised intake
250deg. advertised ext.
190deg. @.050 intake
200deg. @.050 ext.
112.0 lobe separation
1500/4500 rpm range
Smooth idle
It's listed as a 409-340hp cam.

It might be a little too small to make 300hp with stock truck heads.
The next bigger cam should do the trick though. It also costs about $85 more than the base cam...

Isky Hyd.
0.458 lift intake
0.458 lift ext.
252 deg. advertised intake
252 deg. advertised ext.
208 deg. @.050 intake
208 deg. @.050 ext.
110.0 LSA
$175.00
1500/4500 rpm range

I copied this valve spring listing from the Show Cars catalog. They should fit the truck heads and work fine with the first cam. I THINK they'd also be fine for the second cam but it might be a good idea to talk to them first.

#3357 OD-1.345, ID -.910, coil bind 1.140. Spring with dampner fits some stock retainers and oil shields on all 348 except 1147 heads, installed height 1.680 at 80lbs and cam lift to .500 at 210 lbs (green)... Set $ 89.95
You'll also need spacers to replace the exhaust valve rotators, Show Cars has them for 49.95 a set.

The stock push rods and rockers should be fine.

If you want to get rid of the big truck style oil filter it'll cost about $100 to change over to a car style canister setup, or $21 to go with adapter that allows you to use a spin on filter.

The pistons listed in the kit are 11 to 1 but the 10 to 1 pistons are the same price so that might be a better way to go. (10 to 1 pistons would actually work out to about 9 to 1 on this truck engine) Seeing as how we're only aiming for 300hp it might as well run on low octane fuel.

If the big truck damper won't work here's an option...
5479 58-65 6" harmonic balancer for 348 hi and low Perf and low perf 409 balancer, has correct 348/409 timing marks... Ea. $119.00 (Show Cars)

For only 300hp I think the stock truck 4 barrel intake should be fine. The carb mounting area is designed for the old WCFB Carter carb so in order to mount an ABF or AVS style Carter or Edelbrock carb an adapter will be needed. The carb mounting studs should line up with the inner set of holes on a Carter or Edelbrock carb. A Holley carb will also fit with the adapter but the adapter would have to be bolted on first using the inner holes,,, then the Holley carb would get bolted to the adapter via the outer set of holes. Here's a link to an adapter for $14.99... http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/69,392_Universal-Tapered-Port-Adapters.html I recently noticed that Showcars also sells an adapter that will work, but it costs a little more.
A 600cfm AFB style carb should work well. Here's a link to one from Summit... http://store.summitracing.com/partd...919007+4294902725+1051506942+115&autoview=sku
Here's a link to a 650cfm AVS style carb too. Both of these carbs have electric chokes... http://store.summitracing.com/partd...919007+4294902725+1051506942+115&autoview=sku
The AVS, "Thunder" series has tunable vacuum secondaries but it costs more. I think the cheaper AFB style carb would be fine for this engine.

I think all the truck 409 exhaust manifolds had 2 1/2" outlets but if you've only got 2" outlets I think they'd still be okay for 300hp or so.
The truck distributor has a governor. I don't know anything about it but you should be able to defeat it.
Any other W engine distributor will fit. A regular Chevy big block or smallblock can be made to fit with the help of an adapter.
Right now there's problems with the new $69 distributor on E-bay. It sounds like it could be a good deal if they can get it to fit right... http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12170&highlight=distributor
I think the $169 HEI style distributor from Show Cars may be the best way to go right now.

Show Cars sells a new automotive style water pump for $129 and they also have the new Edelbrock aluminum pump for $229

AC43N plugs should be fine. It's not listed in the interchange list but I THINK the thermostat is the same as a regular small block. http://www.348-409.com/348409interchange.html As you can see in the list the small block fuel pump is the same.

So here's a list of parts only with prices for this build up.
Rebuild kit...834.50
Cam upgrade...85.00
Valve springs...89.95
Valve spacers...49.95
Oil filter adapter...21.00
Vibration damper...119.00
Carb addapter...14.99
600 CFM Edelbrock carb...289.95
HEI style distributor...169.00
Water pump...129.00
Plugs, wires, thermostat, oil filter etc...200.00

Total parts so far...$2022.34

I didn't add pulleys, starter or an air cleaner. I also didn't add the cost of valves but if you do have to replace the valves it would be good to go up a size. I got much of the info and pricing from the Show Cars catalog because it was easy for me but of course most of this stuff is available from other sources.

It's hard to accurately estimate the machine shop costs because a lot of that depends on the condition of your block and heads. And it also depends on how much of the work you want to do yourself. There is a list that I got from the Show Cars site on page 3 of this thread and MileHiSS also listed what his engine work cost.
I had one 409 that was in good shape when I got it. There was no abnormal wear and I could see that it was in good shape, so I just ran a hone down the cylinders, put a new set of rings and bearings in and slapped it back together.

 

[jim_ss409]

350 HORSEPOWER...

To hit 350hp I think we're going to need bigger valves. Apparently the ports on the truck heads are very similar to those used on the 340hp 409's. The main difference seems to be valve size. The 333 truck heads came with 1.94 intake and 1.66 ext. valves but in order to hit 350hp we can install 2.075 and 1.725 valves. Hardened exhaust seats are available but you've got to be really careful with them because it's easy to hit water. Some experienced W engine builders like Tony Shaffer like to use the hardened seats and others say they aren't really necessary as long as you're using stainless valves. A set of 16, 2.075 and 1.725 stainless valves costs $149 and hardened valve seats cost $4.80 each. The truck engines came with exhaust valve rotators. Showcars has rotater delete spacers for $50 a set. As for valve springs I copied this from one of Aubrey's earlier posts...

"Comp single spring, #942, with 744 retainers / 603 locks.
Stock length valves, you end up with an average installed height of 1.72".
110 pounds on the seat, will follow up to .540" lift, with approx 300 pounds over the nose at that lift... most combinations end up at 285-290 pounds.
Has run FLAWLESSLY on .520" - .530" lift hydraulic cam, in dozens of combinations... efficiently running to 5500 RPM."

I think that using the bigger valves may require us to do a little bit of blending into the bowl. This isn't anything like a major porting job so you can probably get the guy doing the heads to do it quite cheaply. In an earlier post Steve pointed out that even the 2.19 and 1.72 valves used in high performance heads will fit, and the bigger valves don't cost any more, but the 2.06 intake valves would be big enough for 350hp.
The basic cast piston rebuild kit mentioned in the 300hp post should be fine again, but we'll definitely have to upgrade the cam. The kit comes with 11 to 1 pistons so you'll actually end up with about 10 to 1. I'm sure we could still hit 350hp if we dropped down to 9 to 1 so that might be the safer way to go especially with cast pistons. Cast pistons should be fine at this horsepower level but you could also go with the stronger but more expensive forged pistons. By the way, if you went from 9 to 1 to 10 to 1 you'd gain about 4% or 15hp but you'd have to use 91 octane or better.
I don't know about using the truck intake at 350hp, it MIGHT be okay but an intake from a 340hp 409 or a tri power setup would be better. An offy dual quad setup or the new single plane intake that's supposed to be coming out later this summer would also be good. At this horsepower level it might be best to stay away from a modified factory high perf intake. The big runners would hurt the bottom end power too much. Here's a link to an Offy intake from Summit... http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=OFY-5492&autoview=sku It costs $299.95

Edit, 2013 update: The Edelbrock RPM small port manifold would be much better than Offy or the factory manifolds. Here's a link, part number 7158
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/chevy/perf_rpm-348.shtml
Aubrey's new single plane would also be great but it's probably more suited to the 400 plus horsepower builds.
Here's a link to a dyno test of that manifold but keep in mind that the engine tested made a lot more than 350hp. It's likely that Aubrey's manifold would make more top end power than the Edelbrock but it might give up a little power on the bottom end of the scale.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/index....ormance-speed-port-intake-dyno-results.23328/

The 600 or 650cfm carbs mentioned in the 300hp build should still be adequate at this level but I think an argument could be made for a 750cfm carb too. A pair of 500 or 600cfm Edelbrock carbs will work fine on the Offy intake.
I think the stock truck exhaust manifolds with 2 1/2" outlets would still be okay here. After all, similar manifolds were used on the 409hp 409. Of course headers would make more power but headers don't make a HUGE difference on a mildly cammed engine like this.
Here's some cams that we can talk about...

This one is from Showcars...

Isky Hyd 286
0.510 intake lift
0.510 ext. lift
0.286 intake advertised duration
0.286 ext. advertised duration
0.224 intake @.050
0.224 ext. @.050
110.0 Lobe separation
$175.00

I think these springs will work with this cam but it would be best to double check...
6108 OD-1.430, ID-1.035, Coil bind at 1.080. Spring with dampner, will not fit OEM retainers, installed height of 1.68 at 120 lbs cam lift to 520 at 310lbs when installed at 1.730 at 115lbs cam lift to 570 at 335lbs... Set $129.00

Here's a link to one from Crane, I couldn't find a price for it but a similar Crane cam for the W engine was $300 at Summit

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427 C.I.&partNumber=150291&partType=camshaft

And here's a nice looking one that I copied from Aubrey's site. This cam has a little more lift and less advertised duration so I think it would make a little more power than the Isky cam right across the board.

H-218520D
up to 10.5:1
5300
C
268/270 advertised duration
218/224 duration @ .050
.520/.525 lift

So here's a list of parts we'll need. And again I'm using the Show Cars catalog because it's easy. http://www.dr409.com/ I'll use the same basic engine rebuilding kit we used in the 300hp build on page one but we'll make some changes and substitutions. I copied this quote from from their site... "You can delete and add any part from the following kits. For pricing just add the price for the parts you added and subtract the price for the parts you deleted."

We'll start out with the same basic engine rebuilding kit we used for the 300hp build on page one.
Once again we'll opt for the 10 to 1 pistons so that we end up with about 9 to 1.
We'll also have to upgrade the cam and we'll need valves. Since there are no aftermarket single quad manifolds available yet I'll price this up with an Offy dual quad and a pair of 500 cfm Edelbrock carbs. Refer to the 300hp build at the top of page one of this thread for more information and links.

Master rebuild kit... 834.50
Upgrade to Isky 286 cam... 85.00
Set of 2.075 and 1.725 stainless valves... 149.00
Valve springs... 129.00
Brass valve guides (16)... 56.00
Valve keepers... 9.95
Rotater delete spacers (set)... 49.95
Retainers... 59.75
Offy dual quad manifold (Summit) 299.95
500cfm Edelbrock with electric choke (Summit) 294.95
500cfm Edelbrock with manual choke (Summit) 244.95
Oil filter adapter...21.00
Vibration damper...119.00
HEI style distributor...169.00
Water pump...129.00
Plugs, wires, thermostat, oil filter etc...200.00

Total cost for parts only... $2851.00

The price is fairly high because I priced a new intake with two carbs. You can reduce the cost quite a bit if you use the stock intake or one from a 340hp 409.

 

[jim_ss409]

400 HORSEPOWER

We've got a few guys out there making 400 or more horsepower with small heads so this shouldn't be all that tough.
For this much power we're going to need forged pistons. I think the plan would be to get 11 to 1 pistons so that we'll end up with 10 to 1. With proper ignition timing this engine should run on 91 octane. The stock rods would probably be fine but this would also be a good time to upgrade to longer and stronger big block Chevy sized rods. If you are going to change rods you'll have to use different pistons. Pistons for the long rods are easily available and they are also a little lighter than the pistons with the regular pin height. Here's a link to the pistons that Aubrey designed... http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/409chevyengineparts.html Aftermarket rods aren't as expensive as they used to be here's a link to some for $260 a set... http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SCA-26135&autoview=sku(edit) The H beam rods in the next post look like a good deal.
If your block hasn't been decked most of the available 409 pistons will give you a quench distance of about .050 with the common Fel-Pro .042" gasket. A .022" gasket is available but that would get you down to about .030" That's a little bit too tight for large bore engine like this. Aubrey's pistons are designed to reduce the quench distance. I think most experts would say that somewhere in the .035 to .040 range would be about perfect for a street engine.

I don't know much about piston rings but cast rings might still be fine for 400hp. Stronger rings don't cost a lot more but I think it might be smart to ask your machine shop for their opinion. I think the final cylinder honing should be finer when using chrome or molly coated rings. I know that thiner rings are popular for racing but I don't know if they'd be a good way to go for a 400hp street engine. Maybe someone will have an opinion on that.
The heads will certainly need bigger valves. I'm thinking that the 2.19 and 1.72 valves used in high performance heads would be the way to go. Some bowl blending will be necessary so you can either get your cylinder head guy to do it or you can do it yourself. Light porting your own heads takes some time but it's certainly not beyond the ability of the average hot rodder. There's lots of info online that can get you started. I'm not talking about major porting here, just smoothing out the obvious rough spots.

Here's a post that GOSFAST did a while back regarding valves in 333 truck heads. This is yet another way to go...

"If you take the time and find the "correct" shop, you can make those heads work just great!

The last set we finished we installed some SBC 2.020" intake valves and 1.625" exhaust valves WITH the "hardened" seats for unleaded fuel. By using the SB valves you pick up the advantage of getting some additional air through the unit just by the fact that the stems are .343" instead of the .375" OEM's!
By "backing-down" the exhaust size from 1.660" to 1.625" it allowed more room for the seat inserts. It will NOT hurt the HP numbers and actually gain some by using the smaller stems."

At this horsepower level we're going to need a pretty big cam with more spring pressure so roller rockers would be a good upgrade. I'll price a set of Scorpion roller rockers. The stock 3/8" pressed in rocker studs SHOULD be okay but you may want to opt for 7/16" screw in studs at this time. I'll talk about the studs in the 450hp buildup.

I can't see anyone making 400hp with the truck intake so I think the best bet would be a factory tri power or an Offy dual quad. I think the Offy would be the better of these two. I can't see much point in modifying a factory large port intake because you can sell it and cover much of the cost of the Offy. Of course if the new Edelbrock intake or the new single plane that's been talked about becomes available, they would be better than the old tech Offy. Summit has the Offy intake for $300 http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=OFY-5492&autoview=sku A pair of 500cfm Edelbrock carbs would be good but it's actually a little cheaper to go with a pair of 600's. With a progressive linkage I think the 600's would work just as well. Here's a link to a 600cfm Edelbrock with an electric choke from Summit. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL-1406&N=700 4294925239 4294839063 400065 4294919007 300513 115&autoview=sku A choke is only needed on the rear carb. Get the cheaper manual choke for the front carb and remove the choke assembly.

Edit, 2013 update: The Edelbrock RPM small port manifold that's now available would work great on this engine. Here's a link, part number 7158
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/chevy/perf_rpm-348.shtml
Aubrey's new single plane would also work great. At this power level, it might give up a little bottom end to the Edelbrock manifold but it would almost certainly make more power in the midrange and top end. If you're running a four speed, this manifold would be more fun.
Here's a link to a dyno test of that manifold...
http://www.348-409.com/forum/index....ormance-speed-port-intake-dyno-results.23328/
As you can see it certainly worked great on that engine and would certainly work well on an engine at this level too. Here's a link to a video on that manifold...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yej7CwbvOUE

If you're after the dual quad look, the Edelbrock small port, dual quad would be noticeably better than the Offy.
I'm pretty sure it would give up some low end power compared to the Edelbrock single quad above and it should make a few more ponies at the top end, but I don't think it would match the output of Aubrey's single plane manifold.
Here's a link,,, part number 5408
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/chevy/multiple_carbs-348-409.shtml

I think we'll aim for 400hp using headers here. I'm sure it could be done with the truck exhaust manifolds but that would take a lot of extra cam duration, so if you want to use the truck manifolds be prepared to loose about 20hp or more.
There's not many options, or deals to be had on W engine headers. Here's a thread on the topic... http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11925&highlight=belanger

As for the camshaft, When Fatride was running small heads in his stock stroke 409 I think he was running a Comp. Extreme Energy 268. That cam was actually quite small,,, 224int. 230ext. @.050 yet the engine certainly made more than 400hp. This is a modern hydraulic flat tappet cam with lots of lift so it makes more power than you might expect. Aubrey has this cam listed under "Our Hydraulic Profiles For use with aftermarket valve springs"
http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/409chevyengineparts.html

The next cam down on that list with 230/236 @.050 also looks good. It's similar but just a little bigger.
I notice that Crane also has similar cams. This one's 224-234 @.050 and it's advertised as a "SUBSTITUTE FOR 409 HP MECHANICAL CAMSHAFT" It's got 112 degree lobe centers so it's not quite as aggressive as the Comp. cam.
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427 C.I.&partNumber=150301&partType=camshaft
They also have this one with 230-234@.050 that's advertised as "SUBSTITUTE FOR 425 HP MECHANICAL CAMSHAFT" It's got really wide 114deg lobe centers. http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427 C.I.&partNumber=150311&partType=camshaft
The Crane listings have a list of associated parts, like springs etc. and I checked Comps listings for recommended springs. All four cams call for spring pressures of about 112 closed and 336 open. That's gotta be getting close to the limit for stock rockers. By the way, I'll list some beehive spring options for the 450hp buildup.
I'd like to get some opinions on these cams. My thought is any of them would be fine but the Comp. cams would have a little rougher idle and make more mid range torque. I listed hydraulic cams because they should be fine for the rpm range of a 400hp 409.
With both of the smaller cams, (224 @.050 intake) you MIGHT come out on the low side of 400hp. I'm pretty sure either of the 230 @ .050 cams would be enough to make 400hp.
I'll price this up with this Isky cam from Show Cars. It's listed as a Z-11 replacement. I don't think the lobes are quite as aggressive as the Comp or Crane cams but it should have enough duration to get us to 400hp...
#0941
Isky Hyd.
0.564 int. lift
0.564 ext lift
0.280 int. duration
0.280 ext. duration
0.232 @.050
0.232 @.050
110.0 lobe separation
$175.00
2500/6800 rpm range
Rough Lopey idle
409-Z11

I think these springs will be okay with any of the above cams but they'll be pretty close to coil bind with regular keepers so be sure to double check that they aren't bottoming out.
6108 OD-1.430, ID-1.035, Coil bind at 1.080. Spring with dampner, will not fit OEM retainers, installed height of 1.68 at 120 lbs cam lift to 520 at 310lbs when installed at 1.730 at 115lbs cam lift to 570 at 335lbs... Set $129.00

I'll also add in the cost of these headers...
6168 348/409 Ballanger Type headers. 1-3/4" tubes, 3" collectors, 3/8" head flange, comes with all bolts, flanges, and gaskets... Pr. $329.00
They also have blockhuggers for $285 but they won't make quite as much power as the long tube headers.

So here's what you'll need to be in the 400hp range...

409 Re-Ring Kit

3340A Cast Rings... Set $64.95
5343TR True Roller timing... Set $48.00
1085 Cam bearings... Set $29.50
3343 Main bearings... Set $129.00
3342A Rod bearings... Set $26.50
4033A Freeze plugs... Set $11.50
5657 Gasket set... Set $80.00
TOTAL... $389.45

Forged pistons... $669.00
Oil pump... Ea. $22.25
Set of 2.195 and 1.725 stainless valves... 149.00
Valve springs... 129.00
Brass valve guides (16)... 56.00
Valve keepers... 9.95
Rotater delete spacers (set)... 49.95
Retainers... 59.75
cam... 175.00
High performance hydraulic lifters, set of 16... Set $75.00
Scorpion 3/8" Roller Rocker 1.75 ratio... Set $232.97
Offy dual quad manifold (Summit) 299.95
600cfm Edelbrock with electric choke (Summit) 259.95
600cfm Edelbrock with manual choke (Summit) 249.95
Oil filter adapter...21.00
Vibration damper...119.00
HEI style distributor...169.00
Water pump...129.00
Plugs, wires, thermostat, oil filter etc...200.00
Headers $329.00

Total cost for parts only... $3754.17

This is starting to get pricey.

 

[jim_ss409]

450 or more horsepower.

Edit, 2013 update: Back in 2008 virtually nobody had built a 450 horsepower engine with truck heads but a few guys have done it now.
I had also forgotten to recommend an intake manifold in this post, which is just as well because there are better manifolds available now.
Aubrey's new single plane would be ideal at this power level. In fact this manifold could take a truck engine into the 500hp range.
Here's a link to a dyno test of that manifold...
http://www.348-409.com/forum/index....ormance-speed-port-intake-dyno-results.23328/
Here's a link to a video of that manifold...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yej7CwbvOUE

If you're after the dual quad look, the Edelbrock small port, dual quad would be great too.
I don't think it would match Aubrey's manifold but it should work fine. It would certainly be better than the Offy dual quad
Here's a link,,, part number 5408
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/chevy/multiple_carbs-348-409.shtml

I've read that the #817 heads from the 340hp 409 flow 230cfm with 2.06 valves. The #333 truck heads are very similar so with a little work they should easily flow 230cfm with 2.19 valves. 230cfm should be more than enough to reach 450hp.
I don't think major porting would be necessary. I think there'd be a ridge left after machining for the bigger valves, that would have to get smoothed out. I tried an intake gasket against a head, the ports match up quite well. The port looks to neck down quite a bit in the pushrod pinch area, but it doesn't look too bad.

I think 7/16" screw in rocker studs and roller rockers would definitely be the way to go here. The 7/16" studs allow you to use big block Chevy rockers so you have plenty of choices there. A lot of us have been using Scorpion brand rockers without problems. They cost about $220 for a set.
Here's a link to ARP screw in studs from Summit... http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ARP-100-7101&N=700 115&autoview=sku The stud boss has to be machined down a bit when you use studs like this. I don't know how much, but I think your cylinder head guy will know.

As long as you stick with a flat tappet cam good quality 5/16" pushrods should be fine. If you do decide to go with 3/8" pushrods you'll probably want to go with pushrod guide plates. Show Cars has them.

I don't think we'd need any more than 10 to 1 compression to get to 450hp but a lot of guys are running 11 to 1 without problems using 93 octane. I think that if you're going for maximum horsepower with a big cam aim for 10.5 or 11 to 1 The big cam will reduce the dynamic compression a little and help you avoid detonation. Again, if you want 10 to 1 you'll need 11 to 1 pistons because of the compression losses from the truck cylinder notch and combustion chamber. And of course you'll need forged pistons. By the way nobody makes a hyper-eutectic piston for the W engine so our choice is forged or cast. I'll price this up with standard Ross forged pistons from Show Cars but you may want to take a look at the pistons that Aubrey has. They are designed to optimize the quench distance.
This engine will be reving quite high so it'd be best to loose the stock rods and get some good big block sized rods. Tripower posted a link to some H beam rods that look like a good deal a few posts back.
The 63 dual quad 409 made 425hp at 6000rpm. We're going to have the benefit of headers and a better cam but in order to make 450hp our engine will probably have to peak in the 6,100rpm range. And we want to be able to shift it a few hundred rpm's past that, so we'll need a cam setup that comfortably handle those kinds of rpm's without going into valve float. I'm sure we can hit 450hp with a hydraulic flat tappet cam but we'll have to make sure the springs are just right if we want to rev it up into the 6,500rpm range. A solid flat tappet cam would be great and a solid roller would also be great, but expensive. I like hydraulic rollers but I don't see one working here because it gets hard and expensive to get one to rev that high.

I'll try to narrow this cam selection down when I edit the original post but for now I'll put forward a few different cams that I think will be in the ballpark for 450 or more horsepower.

Here's a couple of solid lifter flat tappet cams from Isky that are in a LOT of 409's. Curt Harvey used these cams quite a bit. He mostly used the Z-45 for stock stroke 409's and he mostly used the Z-33 for strokers. Here's a link to dyno results from a stroked 409 with high perf. heads making 499hp with the Z-33 cam. http://www.348-409.com/literature/cc4094.jpg The Z-33 cam has the same duration at .050 as the factory Z-11 cam used on high perf. 409's but the big difference is that it has a 110 lobe separation angle, so it'll idle pretty rough in a stock stroke engine. I think the Z-45 cam should get us CLOSE to 450hp and I think the Z-33 should probably get us to 450hp. These cams are proven performers but they're getting a little dated. Show Cars has these cams under the numbers 245 and 233. Here's the specs...

Isky Solid 245
0.530 lift intake
0.530 lift ext.
0.024 lash int.
0.028 lash ext.
0.278 advertised int.
0.278 advertised ext.
0.240 duration @ .050 int.
0.240 duration @ .050 ext.
110.0 Lobe separation angle
$175.00
2000/6000 rpm range
Lopey idle

0925
Isky Solid 233
0.560 lift intake
0.560 lift ext.
0.024 lash intake
0.028 lash ext.
0.290 advertised intake
0.290 advertised ext.
0.250 duration @ .050 int.
0.250 duration @ .050 ext.
110.0 LSA
$175.00
3000/7000 rpm range
Rough Lopey idle
409-Z11

Here's a couple of hydraulic flat tappet cams from Aubrey's site that look good. If you subtract a few degrees for valve lash from the Isky's they are quite comparable. The big difference is that these cams have more lift, quite a bit more once you deduct for valve lash. My guess is that they might make a little more power right across the board.

H-234580D
10 - 11:1 recommended compression
6000 max rpm
Rough idle
278/292 advertised duration
234/244 duration @ .050
.580/.585 lift

H-240592D
10 - 11:1 recommended compression
6300 max rpm
Rough idle
284/296 advertised duration
240/246 duration @ .050
.592/.595 lift

And here are a couple of solid flat tappet cams from Aubrey's site. I really think the first one looks good. A cam like that should make a ton of torque.

M-242595D
10 - 11:1 recommended compression
6200 max rpm
Rough idle
272/276 advertised duration
242/246 duration @ .050
.595/.608 lift

M-246570S
10 - 11:1 recommended compression
6300 max rpm
Rough idle
284/284 advertised duration
246/246 duration @ .050
.570/.570 lift

These cams call for about 350 lbs of spring pressure at full lift. I've seen a lot of tests where beehive style springs will control the valves with less pressure so I think the #26986 beehive springs and lighter valves listed below would be a good combination. The lighter valves and softer springs would take a lot of stress off of the valvetrain, yet easily handle 6,500rpm or more.

With the help of some forum members I've got some 11/32" valves that should be good for this application. These are listed as Pontiac 400-455 valves in the Manley catalog, I think they're for the Ram Air Four engines. The intake is .110 longer than the stock 409 valve and the exhaust is .125 longer. Some of the extra length comes from a .025 longer tip length so the actual increase in potential valve lift is .085 intake and .100 ext. The valve sizes are 2.11 intake and 1.66 exhaust which is smaller than the high perf. 409 valves, but I think the flow would be similar because of the thinner stem size. The 1.66 exhaust valves would leave extra room for hardened seats. The intake valve is 22 grams lighter than the 409 valve and the exhaust is 15 grams lighter.
These valves would work well with the Comp. #26896 beehive springs and Comp. #787 retainers. The springs would coil bind at .705 intake and .720 ext. so they could easily handle the lift of the cams listed above. These valves and springs will cost more than the standard ones I've got priced up at the bottom of the page but I think they may be a good way to go. I'd appreciate any opinions.
Here's the links for the valves...
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MAN-11352-8&N=700 115&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MAN-11353-8&N=700 115&autoview=sku
And here's the link to the beehive springs...
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CCA-26986-16&N=700 115&autoview=sku
Retainers...
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CCA-787-16&N=700 115&autoview=sku

I noticed that Aubrey also has roller cams that will work with small heads if you use .100" longer valves. They're near the bottom of the page, here's the link... http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/409chevyengineparts.html

So here's what you'll need to be in the 450hp range...

3341A Moly Rings... Set $74.95
5343TR True Roller timing... Set $48.00
1085 Cam bearings... Set $29.50
3343 Main bearings... Set $129.00
3342A Rod bearings... Set $26.50
4033A Freeze plugs... Set $11.50
5657 Gasket set... Set $80.00
Forged pistons... $669.00
Forged Big Block rods... $260.
Oil pump... Ea. $22.25
Set of 2.195 and 1.725 stainless valves... 149.00
Valve springs... 129.00
Brass valve guides (16)... 56.00
Valve keepers... 9.95
Rotater delete spacers (set)... 49.95
Retainers... 59.75
cam... 175.00
5932 58-65 Isky Hi performance solid lifters, set of 16... Set $84.00
6170 ARP 7/16 Screw in stud, OAL 2.650, Rocker arm end 1.925-true flat end for poly-locks... Set $49.00
Scorpion 7/16" Roller Rocker 1.75 ratio... Set $232.97
Offy dual quad manifold (Summit) 299.95
600cfm Edelbrock with electric choke (Summit) 259.95
600cfm Edelbrock with manual choke (Summit) 249.95
Oil filter adapter...21.00
6121 348/409 Isky 5/16 Chrome moly push rods set... Set $157.50
Vibration damper...119.00
HEI style distributor...169.00
Water pump...129.00
Plugs, wires, thermostat, oil filter etc...200.00
Headers $329.00

Total cost for parts only... $4150.67

 

[jim_ss409]

I come across this list of macine shop costs when I was on the Showcars site...

Machine-Shop Service

Block Work

99501 Hot tank block... $73.00
99512 Crack check block... $72.00
99530 Line bore block... $250.00
99513 Line hone block... $150.00
99500 Install cam bearings... $73.00
99503 Bore block (8 holes)... $275.00
99532 Hone block.. $40.00
99504 Deck block... $150.00
99259 Index block (Hr)... $50.00
99535 Clearance stroker block... $300.00
99534 Pressure test block... $100.00



Head Work

99517 Hot tank heads... Pr. $35.00
99518 Crack check heads... Pr. $24.00
99507 Valve job on a pair of heads... $238.12
99508 Install 8 valve seats... $82.96
99509 Install 16 valve guides... $108.00
99533 Cut valve bowls for larger valves... $160.00
99510 Machine cylinder heads... Pr. $87.00
99515 Machine & tap rocker arm stud bosses (per head)... $160.00
99516 Machine upper valve guide bosses for seal... $45.00
99528 Resize 16 stock valve guides... $56.00
99531 Weld stud bosses... $12.00



Miscellaneous

99502 Shop supplies and hazard waste charge... $38.76
99505 Recondition rods... Ea. $14.63
99506 Grind crankshaft... $148.00
99511 Polish crankshaft... $55.00
99514 Fly cut pistons... $120.00
99621 Assemble and run... $3,000.00
99523 Pinfit rods (8)... $46.00
99524 Balance rotating assembly... $375.00
99525 File fit rings... $90.00
99526 Cut main bolts... $25.00
99527 Index crankshaft (Hr)... $50.00

 

[jim_ss409]

As you can see the costs on the higher horsepower builds are pretty high but the costs include things like new manifolds, headers, carbs etc. I guess it's like they say... "Horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

 

[petepedlar]

A Huge Thank You

Hey Jim, I'd like to give you a huge thank you for taking the time to post all the information. It's fantastic information and it's fantastic to have it all together.

Maybe Bob could make a little spot on the site somewhere where it would be easy to find for new members in the future..... and some of us existing members who tend to forget where they left things.....

Dave

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Just HUGE, Jim

Thank you for the referrals

Just thought I'd mention, if a person orders my piston, as you pointed out, the deck/squish distance is already optimized for use with composition head gaskets. This means, the compression ratio that you order, will be what you end up with ( I specify truck or car block when I order... difference is "built in" ).

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Hey Jim... so much for the referrals
Those links you posted, are missing something !

http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/camshaftspringsrockers.html

 

[jim_ss409]

Opps, the links didn't transfer from the original thread.
I'll fix them up tomorrow.

 

[skipxt4]

GREAT job Jim. That was a lot of research, not to mention all the typing. One thing that was left out was, and it wasn't your fault. It wasn't on Showcar's list. How much $$$$$ for a sleeve and the labor to install? Just curious. Skip

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Skip, Can't answer for Showcars but it is $150 to $200 per sleeve in this area, depending on the shop. OH, I almost forgot,,,,,,, Great job JIm. I'm sure your efforts will be appreicated greatly by many.

 

[skipxt4]

Thanks Ronnie: I guess sleeving more than a couple cylinders at once, isn't gonna happen. Skip:eek:

 

[MileHiSS]

Jim,
I'm a little curious to find out (maybe later this spring or summer), what horsepower my new truck 409 will make.

Since it will have to be on a chassis dyno, how can I convert the results to compare my build, with your estimated build for each horsepower?

Also, since I'm at 5200 feet, how can that adjustment be made?

dave in denver

 

[rstreet]

Jim:
Thanks for all your research on this.
See you at the Reunion or in Norwalk this summer
robert

 

[jim_ss409]

Jim,
I'm a little curious to find out (maybe later this spring or summer), what horsepower my new truck 409 will make.

Since it will have to be on a chassis dyno, how can I convert the results to compare my build, with your estimated build for each horsepower?

Also, since I'm at 5200 feet, how can that adjustment be made?

dave in denver

Dave, We don't have much in the way of dyno results for W engines. Especially truck engines. It would be great to get some numbers.
I think most dynos can compensate for weather and altitude. The hard part seems to be factoring in drivetrain losses, especially with an automatic and a high stall converter. I THINK you loose about 15 to 20% with a standard transmission and 20 to 25% with an automatic. And I've heard that you'll show even bigger losses if you have a high stall convertor.

 

[gabriel-cestaro]

thanks jim learning a lot about 409 engines from all your work

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Very enticing!

Jim:

We really appreciate your efforts in putting these variable together, along with detailed listings of parts and labor associated with the "truck engine" rebuilds. A lot of guys can now see the details and costs associated with such builds.

I've been collecting mostly high performance components over the past 5-6 years, but in doing so I've come across a large number of these truck engines, and I buy 'em up anyway. Now I have a good excuse for having done so .

I was joking the other day with a fellow enthusiast that you have detailed these builds so well that now the "333" heads and "eyebrowed" blocks are now going to hit the price ceiling . I used to think the 333 heads were worth a couple hundred bucks, now I'm thinking I should build one of these! I never thought you could get 400 plus horses out of those heads, but that was based on Lamar's comments back in 2004 at the KC Reunion, where he referred to them as "door stops".

Just last year I gave away a set of 817 heads and at least two sets of 333 heads, figuring they were well deserved and appreciated by the recipients. Now I think I'll hang on to the rest of 'em and am now seriously contemplating a so-called "truck engine rebuild". I just wish I had a complete vehicle to plop that engine in to .

Thanks again for you insightful details and comprehensive listings. My plans are to print these out for my personal reference sheets .

Cheers!
TomK

 

[gabriel-cestaro]

need a part number??

been reading all posting on head gaskets and truck block rebuilds but i guess being new at these 409 engine i just can not find the answer to my question which is what head gaskets should i use ????????????
what i have here is as follows
409 truck block .30 over cast piston has not been decked 11 to 1 compression
333 heads /1.75exhaust /2.195 intake valves
new vavle guides
surface heads .010
surface exh side of heads .015
cut guides for seals and rotator elimanators
pin and new studs 3/8
set spring height 1.70 140lbs

isky cam 241264
dur 264 drg
open 22 before tdc
close 62 after bdc
cam lift .300
valve lift .450
valve lash .0

taken at .050
duration 214 deg
open -3 before tdc
close 37 after bdc

rollor rockers 3/8 /1.75
offenhauser low profile 2x4 intake
dual 500 carbs
thank you for your help and input
gabe